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Old 04-13-2004, 10:20 AM   #59
Lyta_Underhill
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The fact that God knew of the fall of man is not the point. He knew it would happen, but that isn't the same as causing it to happen. god created a good world, in which there was no evil in either the planning or in the making.
Quote:
Eru creates in full knowledge, a world was, or had become, flawed in the planning stage. He knows all things predicted in the Music will come about, because He has created the world in such a way that they must come about - because 'none' may change the Music in His despite.
This contrast is interesting, and I bow down before your ability to clarify this basic underpinning of the two worlds, davem! This should go in an FAQ somewhere! However, I do get odd notions from the contrast as well. (Being not versed in theology or in the finer labels of philosophical theory, I must relegate my insights to "notions.")

First, having God know of but not influence the fall of man seems to separate Him from us in a fundamental way, distancing the Creator from the created, putting us alone into a universe that you might argue has been marred by our own actions. Thus, it suggests that theory that God set the universe in motion and allowed it to take its course by means of physical laws and "free will," that any intervention would be from outside, by a force greater than us and also alien to us. In a way, it can lead to as much despair as a view where the Creator builds His music into us and our sufferings are pre-ordained. If you ascribe to God a separateness from Man and thus a lack of connection between Him and us, it might suggest that he does not control the outcome of His creation but can only reach a hand in every now and then to correct his "experiment."

The Eru hypothesis would suggest that He knows it all, and that the sufferings of men and our hero Frodo are part of the larger Music. In a way, this view gives me more hope than the bleak idea that we bring our suffering upon ourselves, by our own choices of evil. If you accept as axiomatic that men are flawed and susceptible to evil, then a man "falling" to evil in our universe is like a man devouring himself, becoming, in effect, evil himself. Frodo's fall, however, is inevitable, and, however much it makes him suffer, it is a direct connection to the universe and to the Music. It puts Frodo in the position of fighting the Long Defeat directly and in a key way, rather than stumbling through and suffering for nothing. I don't think this takes ALL of Frodo's free will from him, though, as he is free to abandon the quest at any point but chooses not to do so. This bespeaks an inner strength, and in my opinion, is not inevitable, but directly willed. In a sense, Frodo IS the Music, rather than being a puppet of Eru.

I am not sure I have explained this properly and I am running out of time, so hopefully it is clear enough.

Second point: The fundamental difference davem points out givs me the same feeling I got when looking at the plain wood back walls of the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyworld one year, when I performed with a marching band at the opening of Epcot Center (yes, I'm that old!). The walls and concrete sidewalk were so bleak and unlike my childhood experiences on the ride itself that, even though I know it to be a construct, the seeing of it destroys the illusion on another level, and now Pirates of the Caribbean is an even cheesier memory! (Not that I'd give up the odd experience of seeing the back end of a pirate realm!)

In a way, this rings with the idea of sub creation, the limitations of Man in the arena of the divine. No matter how he struggles to paint a complete picture, there is always something that he must consider on man's level and not God's/Eru's . Eru is a reflection, a sub-creation, but the mysteries and questions raised by both are fundamentally unresolvable from our point of view (at least in my point of view.). I personally find it more rewarding to allow mysteries to exist, rather than to rail against them, since the latter is ultimately futile and creates more unhappiness than fulfillment. Thus, I cherish not only my 6 year old wonder at the dark splashes of bizarre pirates that sing and don't move and exist only for my pleasure, but also the stark walls and concrete behind them, the construct that somehow holds in a world I can enjoy without having to regret that the walls are there.

Now that time has run out, and I must attend to the day, I hope my thoughts have interested some of you, or at least been a bit amusing!

Cheers!
Lyta
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”
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