[davem]

Hookbill & Firefoot,

Eru creates a flawed world - out of his own free will (& being 'God' - within ME - He is the only being who truoly has free will). It is not a world which, like this one according to the Bible, was created perfect & then fell. It is pre-fallen. So, while man's 'fall' in this world was a possibility, it was not inevitable. In ME 'falls' are effectively inevitable, because Melkor's influence is written into the blueprint.

Of course, Eru has stated that none may change the Music in His despite - so we come to te conclusion that He accepted Melkor's input. So Eru, in full knowledge, makes a world in which, because of its nature, falls are more or less inevitable, or at least incredibly difficult to avoid.

The fact that God knew of the fall of man is not the point. He knew it would happen, but that isn't the same as causing it to happen. god created a good world, in which there was no evil in either the planning or in the making. Eru creates in full knowledge, a world was, or had become, flawed in the planning stage. He knows all things predicted in the Music will come about, because He has created the world in such a way that they must come about - because 'none' may change the Music in His despite.

So, He is responsible. In choosing Frodo to carry the Ring, He is responsible for what happens to him. In this world Christ comes to save us from our sins through his death. But in ME Eru's incarnation (as predicted in the Athrabeth) & subsequent death, would be about putting right the Flaws he had deliberately allowed in His own creation. The first is God putting right our 'wrong', the second is Eru putting right his own.

LMP - long time no hear!

As to the 'conceit' of LotR, for me it still applies, & makes the ending more beautiful & moving - no, we don't have final confirmation that Frodo comes safe to the Undying Lands & the healing he needs - but we have Sam's hope for him. And this is a story about Hope, without guarantees. It leaves us feeling that it should be true - & this is what inspires hope, faith, & trust. What inspires in the Christian story is a deep sense that it should be true, it ought to be like that - & that, not all the textual or archaeological 'evidence' is what first connects with people. Not the 'wrongness' - which that kind of death also inspires - we always feel that cruelty & death is 'wrong', & that 'someone' must be held accountable. But there is a sense that because of that event something is now put right that wasn't right before. In this sense, the 'conceit' of LotR works, even at the end. Our emotional connection is stronger because we don't really know what happened - we have Sam's hope that it will all work out for the best. A simple faith, not a stated 'fact', dead as a doornail.

As to Frodo's willing acceptance of the burden - yes, he did - at least he accepted it in stages. What he could not accept or agree to is what he would become, how he would end up. So, can we say he 'brought his final condition on himself, because he agreed to take the Ring? If we can't say that, then can we hold anyone or anything else responsible - Eru, who made Arda Flawed, & will allow none to change the Music in his despite - or 'the way things are in the world' (which again brings us back to Eru, because 'the way things are in the world is down to Him).