[davem]

Quote: Why should elves be so oppressed and depraved of ability to receive Eru's gifts? For anything coming from Eru is stated textually to be believed by Elves to be for the good of his Children (Estel), and elves are His Children.

What I meant was that from the perspective of Elves in Middle Earth, living out, or attempting to live out, the original Music, knowing (consciously or unconciously) only the original Music, a New Music would seem alien & unattractive, unless it was in vitually all ways a restatement of the original. Of course, once they actually hear the new Music, as it proceeds from Illuvatar, as Eruhini, they could not but be won over to it. If they can only choose to manifest one or other of the themes of the original Music, they could not relate to a totally new form of it, because they could not concieve of a totally different Music.,

Quote: Estel consists not in the belief of perfection of final product of Eru's, but in the belief of His love for his Children and any deed of His being for their ultimate good.

But surely, the result of any loving deed of Eru must be 'perfect'. Whatever the Elves hope for, or trust in, they would expect it to be perfect, even if they cannot concieve of the form that 'perfection would take.

Quote:In case of the perception, how would one tell whether the thing perceived is the old thing perceived as new but nevertheless unchanged, or thing indeed changed and new and therefore so perceived?

By difference in form of the thing percieved. My feeling is that the Elves would seek constantly renewed experience of what they already know, whereas men would seek experience of new things. This is how I understand the difference of human & Elvish psychology. Both races could tell whether they were simply looking at the same tree with 'renewed' vision, or looking with the 'same old' vision at a new tree.


Quote: Now my argument is that: Should groups and categories be introduced, it is incorrect to place Valar and Elves in one group and Men in another. It would be rather more logical to make groups as follows – group 1 Valar and group 2 Elves and Men, on the ground of difference of status.

You see, I would agree with you here, except it is clearly stated by Tolkien that mne are not bound by the Music, which is as fate to all things else. So, Elves Valar & Maiar are bound by the Music, & Men are not

Quote:.But Man, can not choose to be proud (cruel, dominant, destructive) and yet make any good end of it.

I would say that Turin does exactly that. He is driven by pride - probably more than any other character but Feanor. Both these characters' pride achieves good - the slaying of Glaurung & the creation of the Silmarils. Even the Noldor's rebellion & return to ME helps to hold Morgoth in check, In fact they probably did more in the fight against Morgoth than the Valar did, taking into account their strength.

Quote:Or, to be back on jet engines, jet engine per se is neither good nor bad. The knowledge on behalf of its handler (be it man or elf) that its usage is damaging, and decisions and actions hence with regards of such a knowledge, that is which makes jet engine probable medium for evil.

If we take the statement from Hobbit about Orcs being responsible for explosives & torture devices as being correct, then we can concieve of Morgoth's theme including the 'potential' for modern warfare, including jet fighters. So, Elves & valar could choose the jet fighter, or reject it, but they couldn't seperate the concept 'jet' from the concept 'fighter'. Men could, so they could build a jet aircraft which wasn't a fighter.