Thread: Evil things
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Old 03-31-2004, 12:45 PM   #89
davem
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1. I see the "was still coming into being", as implying passage of time for Halls of Eru. Eru, as it is, and his Halls, are outside time. For all we know, Music may be there still (and 'still' here does not reflect actual passage of time, but is used for the lack of better word). The history of the world and completetion of the Music, though, of course, the latter being the cause for the first, are not linked in a temporal way. So to say, I do not hold that first was Music, than it was over, and World began. It may be so, of course, but for all we know, it may be not, and those Ainur who were left behind and did not become Valar may be still singing it. Again, "still" used for the lack of better word.

There is 'process' - the second theme arises as a direct result of Melkor's changes to the first, & same with the third. If Melkor hadn't introduced the discord, the Music would have continued as Eru first intended. Again, Melkor can change the Music (before 'Ea!), even if Eru knows he will do it, it is still Melkor's choice, & his choice is made as a result of changes he has personally gone through & decisions he has made. Finally Eru stops the Music, & shows the Ainur what it 'looks like'. Before Eru creates the Ainur there is neither time nor process, but once they appear, change begins - whether you want to call it 'time' or not.

The problem I have with the idea of Eru as the only source of real change can be summed up by the question - why bother? If he is simply manipulating events, & the only new things are put there by him, then there is no free will, & no real point. So, we fall back to the Hindu view, & everything is merely the dream of Brahma - or might as well be. I think the point is that not everything original comes from Eru, because we are real, conscious, responsible individuals, who can make choices, initiate events, & be judged not only on our moral choices, but also on our actions. If the Fea arises from Eru, then we are, in a small way, like our 'father' - makers & sub creators. We do have the ability to initiate - even if Eru knows what we will initiate before we do - it is our work, not his, or we might as well not exist.

Our fredom to act independently of the Music, is stated in Ainulindale, & really is the only thing that gives any point to Arda at all. The fact that it is not set, & can be altered - with Eru's agreement, is vital, or it might just as well have remained a heavenly symphony. Why bother doing anything if its all set out & cannot be changed. We would be nothing more than a 'sims' game played by Eru.

I also can't see what point there is in Men having freedom to act beyond the Music when they die - why put men into the world at all if they are only to be a mortal version of Elves, same limitations, only not around so long. The fact that men enter into the world along with the Elves, means they must also have a role within the world, something that they only can do. The very fact that men are driven to change the world, while Elves seem driven to 'perfect & then embalm' it speaks of a different psychological state, a different perception of the world. Men want to change things, build, create, evolve. Elves simply don't & seem mainly concerned with preventing change & stopping time.


As to the Athrabeth - I have to admit to being slightly uncomfortable with aspects of Tolkien's later writings - the ones from the 'Myths Transformed' period, as, for all their profundity, Tolkien seems to be mostly concerned with making his secondary world conform to the Primary one, even at the cost of throwing out some of his greatest creations.

Still, that said, we have to accept what the Athrabeth said. Yet, even so, what Andreth reports is merely 'a tradition', we don't know how old it is, where it arose, or what inspired it. Certainly it doesn't (unless you can find a reference I've forgotten) fit in with the original conception - not in its detail. Men seem originally to have come west seeking the 'Light'. It seems to imply a 'fall' of Mankind as a whole, but I'm not sure it would work, & would possibly cause problems in the whole mythology if accepted as canonical - like so many of his attempted later changes. Certainly, in the original versions, right up to this late period, we don't find a 'Biblical' type fall of a whole race in the legendarium. Falls seem to happen on a small scale - either individuals or groups. Even when he tells Milton Waldman that the 'Fall of Man is in the Background, it doesn't seem to figure or have any real prominence in the early & middle period myths, & one suspects that he said that simply as an acknowledgement that that's what the bible said.

But now I'm way off topic ( & you'll probably find a quote to disprove all that - its 18 months since I read HoME & I expect to be deservedly shown up for my ignorance .
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