higher up dragons re:
Quote:
from the Hobbit
No dragon can resist the fascination of riddling talk and of wasting time trying to understand it.
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therefore, all of the dragons are likely to be 'seductive'
******
Now for
davem's [fascinating and worthy, I should say] speculation
inside the box thinking re: I would rather say that neither Men can think outside the box, (i.e. Music), since the Music is everything there is (for everybody else inside Arda and for Men at least before they die). Men (and Elves likewise) do not bring change into Music, they
are the change in the Music, i.e. new theme of it, brought about by Eru. Therefore, the real change is in the hands of Eru, and all else are but His instruments.
so,
Quote:
by davem
to introduce new themes
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applies to none but Eru
The statement above, thogh seemingly doing it, does not eliminate the freedom of will:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HerenIstarion
reposted from here (thread The Halls of Mandos and Elvish Free Will, in case you are curios as why there is such a mental picture suggested)
Mental picture of a man looking upon a rope stratched on the table. Both, table(space) and rope(time), are made by man(God), but man(God) is not bound to be inside each. The picture is lame for if any ant (human, elf) was to move along the rope, it would imply some passage of time by itself. But if there was no time for a man (God)(and there, in fact, is no) than he would be able to see an ant (human, elf) at any given moment of it’s progress along the rope (time). Neither it means that watching ant crawling along the line is somehow influencing it’s progress, i e predestining it. Yet, if talking about fate and free will, add to the your mental picture two more elements – lumps of sugar and drops of orange juice, placed by man (God) simultaneously along the rope (time). Now imagine ant (human, elf) having moral code – eating sugar is sinful, drinking juice is righteous. That placement gives you fate. Suppose red ants (elves) and black ants (humans) have different conditions crawling along the same rope. For the red ones there is fate – sugar and juice placed along the way. Black ones simply don’t sense those, or sense them only if travelling in company of red ones. Red ants’ (elves) free will is expressed in the choice – eat sugar, and therefore sin, or abstinate from it and be righteous. Red ants are unable to leave the rope, black ones are free to stray. Here it is, free will, “omnitemporalness” of God and fate. |
Therefore, there is no such thing as true freedom of men before they die and go whither elves know not. But than, whilst alive, (and after a point in the Vision which was denied Valar by Eru) they have as much knowledge of 'what changes will occur' as elves do (or even less so, thanks to greater experience and wisdom of elves and valar). They just live, as it is (you made it sound as if humans were consciously working on changes to push the world further from elves)
unnatural magic re: as I was trying to drive home
elswhere (thread Acceptance of Mythology), no magic in ME is unnatural, since, if it is inside Arda, and , therefore, inside Nature, it is natural (expression of bearers inherent abilities, that is, which may look to the ignorant as something unnatural (c.f. Galadriel/Samwise conversation about elvish magic)