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bombur · 10-06-2002, 08:22 AM

I think we are over-canonising Tolkien quite often. Like for example taking as fact something scribbled on a slip of paper. This may well have been a thought discarded by Tolkien himself. Or, Tolkien being the ultimate perfectionist, he just pondered "hidden fastness" as the anwser, but was not totally satisfied with it and hence did not include it even on any of the semi-finished tales of his. I do not take the "waste basket archaeology" without a pound or two of salt. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Also, there is tendency to assume that what Tolkien does not mention does not exist. This is not realistic, as he was not even trying to write a geographic manual, but rather a story, that reveals parts of the land only.

in Tolkiens work Eriador seems awfully empty. But come to think of it, so do the plains of Rohan. We are facing the fact that Tolkien does not cover all of the Middle Earth in his books. By the books we only know that there are no major cities in Eriador and that Tharbad and Fornost are in ruins. We also know that the western slopes of misty mountains between Rivendell and Moria, surroundings of shire and the road between Bree and Rivendell are relatively scarcely populated what comes to men.

It would seem reasonable to assume that in middle earth as in our world, when a great kingdom falls, the population is not suddenly extinct. It would rationally follow that the edges of the north-south road, banks of greyflood and lake Evendim, Emyn Uial, North downs, south downs and shores of Minhiriath are littered by occasional smallish villages and hamlets of men. Theese after all were the heartlands of Cardolan and Arthedain.

The Areas that are barren are so for reason. The mountainslopes are not the most arable land available. The weather hills were the area contested by the three kingdoms of Eriador and the population of Rhudaur was worst decimated by the wars.

Streams of refugees were coming from south to Eriador in the end of the third age. It is not in human nature to flee to a barren wilderness. People flee to more peaceful lands where other people live. If Eriador was barren, the people would have fled from south to Rhovanion and Anfalas.

It often mentioned that the Rangers fight a secret war on the servants of Sauron in the Eriador and keep its inhabitants safe. 30 hunters can hardly be called a war. And could hardly keep even Bree safe. Never mind that they are mighty warriors, they still cannot be in two places at one time.

I would tend to think that the rangers are a gipsylike elitist clan setteling nowhere. A family might settle down for a few years in this or that village and raise a child, then moving on. There are plenty of people living in Eriador and the last survivors of the great men of Numenor have important skills to trade for (As Gipsies used to have in farming society) occasional temporary mebership of the village communities.

This kind of life would be too dangerous to a heir of Isildur while growing up, as he/she is hunted by Saurons servants, so a shelter that is not part of a normal Ranger way of life has to be found. Elrond provided this.

A land the size of Eriador could well sustain a scarce population of quarter of a million without any village being over hundred or two hundred people in size, hunting being important livelihood and farming prevalent only by rivers or lakes or where there are small streams or ponds, like propably around Bree. There might well be few several hundreds of combatant Rangers. Population of some thousand or two maybe.

This is only what I think the not-spoken-of part of the story is. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Janne Harju

And BTW. Aragorn made a second capital where Fornost used to be after becoming a king. Never in human history has a capital (or city even) been built in a location where no or very few people live nearby. All the cities / admistrative palaces ever built by royal order heve been built on a location where there are at least farming communities closeby for hiring of construction labour etc.

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

10-06-2002, 08:22 AM	#14
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	I think we are over-canonising Tolkien quite often. Like for example taking as fact something scribbled on a slip of paper. This may well have been a thought discarded by Tolkien himself. Or, Tolkien being the ultimate perfectionist, he just pondered "hidden fastness" as the anwser, but was not totally satisfied with it and hence did not include it even on any of the semi-finished tales of his. I do not take the "waste basket archaeology" without a pound or two of salt. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Also, there is tendency to assume that what Tolkien does not mention does not exist. This is not realistic, as he was not even trying to write a geographic manual, but rather a story, that reveals parts of the land only. in Tolkiens work Eriador seems awfully empty. But come to think of it, so do the plains of Rohan. We are facing the fact that Tolkien does not cover all of the Middle Earth in his books. By the books we only know that there are no major cities in Eriador and that Tharbad and Fornost are in ruins. We also know that the western slopes of misty mountains between Rivendell and Moria, surroundings of shire and the road between Bree and Rivendell are relatively scarcely populated what comes to men. It would seem reasonable to assume that in middle earth as in our world, when a great kingdom falls, the population is not suddenly extinct. It would rationally follow that the edges of the north-south road, banks of greyflood and lake Evendim, Emyn Uial, North downs, south downs and shores of Minhiriath are littered by occasional smallish villages and hamlets of men. Theese after all were the heartlands of Cardolan and Arthedain. The Areas that are barren are so for reason. The mountainslopes are not the most arable land available. The weather hills were the area contested by the three kingdoms of Eriador and the population of Rhudaur was worst decimated by the wars. Streams of refugees were coming from south to Eriador in the end of the third age. It is not in human nature to flee to a barren wilderness. People flee to more peaceful lands where other people live. If Eriador was barren, the people would have fled from south to Rhovanion and Anfalas. It often mentioned that the Rangers fight a secret war on the servants of Sauron in the Eriador and keep its inhabitants safe. 30 hunters can hardly be called a war. And could hardly keep even Bree safe. Never mind that they are mighty warriors, they still cannot be in two places at one time. I would tend to think that the rangers are a gipsylike elitist clan setteling nowhere. A family might settle down for a few years in this or that village and raise a child, then moving on. There are plenty of people living in Eriador and the last survivors of the great men of Numenor have important skills to trade for (As Gipsies used to have in farming society) occasional temporary mebership of the village communities. This kind of life would be too dangerous to a heir of Isildur while growing up, as he/she is hunted by Saurons servants, so a shelter that is not part of a normal Ranger way of life has to be found. Elrond provided this. A land the size of Eriador could well sustain a scarce population of quarter of a million without any village being over hundred or two hundred people in size, hunting being important livelihood and farming prevalent only by rivers or lakes or where there are small streams or ponds, like propably around Bree. There might well be few several hundreds of combatant Rangers. Population of some thousand or two maybe. This is only what I think the not-spoken-of part of the story is. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Janne Harju And BTW. Aragorn made a second capital where Fornost used to be after becoming a king. Never in human history has a capital (or city even) been built in a location where no or very few people live nearby. All the cities / admistrative palaces ever built by royal order heve been built on a location where there are at least farming communities closeby for hiring of construction labour etc. [ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]