[lindil]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you have read the LOTR over and over then you should realize there is much more to it than the Matrix. LOTR as a story took 18 years to write. I don't think the Matrix storyline took that long. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lathriel, your above quote illustrates my point exactly. The books are far superior to the Matrix, I agree wholeheartedly. <B>But</B> you seem to have missed my point [assuming you were responding to, or referencing my above comments...] that I am <B>drawing a sharp distinction</B> between PJ's 'LotR' and the Books.<P>Imladris, alot of points, so I will try and cover them one by one [all quotes are I.'s]:<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Remember that scene in Moria, and Gandalf is telling Frodo not to be too eager to deal out death and judgment because the very wise cannot see all ends and that he was meant to have the Ring? These are very clear statements of the sovereignty of a God <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I bet you Burrahobbit could justify an ethical moralism without deity, but since he may well not be following this thread...<P>... I tend to believe that an implicit underlying moral structure both in RL and in M-E is indicitave of a supreme Creator, I do not think the above sentence comes close to proving it, PJ and co's statements aside. They may have a very low threshold for what qualifies as religious, who can say, with out a far more detailed statement. I suppose 'meant' is the word catching your eye. It does point to someone <I>meaning</I> it to happen, but one better have one's thinking cap on pretty tight to draw the appropriate conclusion before you are spun off into the next lines and scene...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for you’ve insulting statement:<P> " Perhaps it was Shadowfax the sentient horse killing Denethor? ""<P>I fail to see how that is even remotely concerned with Christianity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Me too! How on earth PJ thought that was consistent with Tolkien in anyway shape or form will remain a mystery till the EE perhaps or maybe forever. As this already has it's own thread I will not elaborate4 here, but many folks were bothered by this who are othewise very pro PJ.<P>It was brought up becuase I considered it a case where PJ was abandoning the morality of the books, having Shadowfax [who is supposed to be so closely attuned to G. that G. takes him to Valinor] kicking Denthor back onto the pyre. Lord have mercy. Feel free to elaborate on the insult...or not.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I am quite aware that Tolkien based many of his writings upon Norse myths (Beowulf and others), but that does not mean that he included the numerous pagan gods, as you implied here: I have only read the first chapter of the Sil, but I have read from others on this very forum that there is only one God in Tolkien’s world: Illuvitar and that his Valar are the angels. That in and of itself (as well as the description of the creation of ME) is Christian. Also, Tolkien was a very faithful Catholic, so why would he promote pagan gods? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never said he promoted Pagan gods, I said M-E recast and recycled much of pagan <I>literature</I>. The Valar, as you will discover when you finish reading the Silmarillion , Lost Tales and Morgoth's Ring [in particular] are a sort of hybrid between Classical Pagan 'gods' [Not God or Iluvatar] and Angels. If you were to read the biblical and Christian references re: angels and them compare it with Tolkiens Valar, you would [ I think] have to agree that by and large they much more closely resemble the pagan 'gods'. The essential difference is that the Valar are conciously subservient to Eru/God, whereas most mythological deities are more or less free-agents. The Valar are however depicted as acting and feeling and having responsibilities far closer to 'gods' than anything the Bible or the Fathers and Saints have described as Angelic. See especially Pseudo Dionysios the Aeropagite for the most detailed classical treatment in Christianity of Angels.<P>By and large though, JRRT was interested in doing a massive salvage job on the pagan and sem- pagan myths of Northern Europe. He was not trying to in any <I>obvious</I> way promote Christianity. Of course most people [especially Christians, and myself included] tend to believe that his subtle work of creating a pre-Christian mythology and epic were not only successful point, by there very eliptical omissions and hints point to Christianity [ you could argue much the same for it pointing to any form of Monotheism I think, unless you take the specific reference of Finrod to the inevitable incarnation of God in the Athrabeth which I mentioned earlier].<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Throughout the entire books and movies, there are definite Christian themes that PJ portrays in the movies. The themes of self sacrifice (primary in the books) are all portrayed in the movies. The fight to destroy evil at whatever cost is also portrayed in the movies as it was in the books. All of these are Christian themes, and all of them were portrayed in the movies. I did not say that “Christ” or that the “God of the Bible” were referred to in either books or movies. I said that the “Christian-ness” of the books were faithfully portrayed on screen. I hope I have proved my point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, to me at least Imladris you proved nothing so far [there a couple of points I will conced in a bit]. I do not see self-sacrifice as any more of a Christian concept than a Taoist or Buddhist [to name a couple I am familiar with].<P>If you like I can provide some direct qoutes from Buddhist and Taoist texts which pre-date Christ, but for now, I will leave you with the easily researched assertion. <P>Christianity has few novel [read: exclusive] moral or psychological concepts. What is unique about it, is an assertion that God became flesh/fully human in order to repair the effects of the Fall for those who would follow Him,, and that Christ founded a community and instituted Sacraments [or as the Orthodox refer to them as Mysteries]to bind one closer to Truth/Christ. This alone in my opinion [and many practical matters flowing therefrom] are what are unique about Christianity, not it's moral and ethical teachings. these are by and large common property of all of the major religions.<P>None of the above factors in any way makes it into PJ's 'LotR'. None. Yes bits of dialogue survive unmolested here and there, especially Gandalf's [which I have heard Ian had to fight for ] and they often reflect JRRT's moral outlook, but the subtlty and beauty of presentation are lost amidst the many characteratures of characters [Gimli, the fighting Coucil of Elrond, the gluttonus Denethor, Gandalf hitting Denthor and Pippin with his staff, etc] the very fabric upon which JRRT's imbedded message pointing ever so softly to Christ has been [imo] severly distorted. I would be suprised to encounter a person who came to Christ through the Movies, [although I am sure it will happen at least once!] wheras the forums are full of many people [myself included] who count JRRT's writings, as one of the main factors in their conversion. <P>If you feel on a gut or artistic level PJ captured that aspect of the story for you, then I will not try and disuade you of your experience. For me however, virtually all of the more delicate aspects [other than something of the Elves and some little bit Gandalf's spirit, prior to his entry into Gondor] was pretty much obliterated by the recasting of the tale to meet [as so many here bravely justify PJ] the demands of Hollywoood and the 'average' moviegoer.<P>re: Faramir's grace before the meal at Henneth Annun:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That doesn’t seem like a prayer to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, JRRT in the fith footnote to Letter 153 calls the above referenced comments of Faramirs' 'grace at meat'. You may not take it as a prayer, but JRRT certainly did.<P>It is clearly a ritual act, as TTT says it 'was always done'.<P>To fully understand the religious nature of the reference, one should look at the Akallabeth and the early chapters of the Quenta material in either The Silmarillion or Morgoth's Ring to get a picture as to just how reverantly the Valar, and the gift of the Islnad of Numenor were seen by the Elves and the Numenorean Exiles.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Also, very confusing to portray on film. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, especially after what was done to Faramir's character, it is hard to imagine him saying something just as JRRT wrote it, .<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I notice that you decided to ignore Arwen’s references to the Valar. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If she indeed makes one, I did miss it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You see, the clincher with me is this: in the Matrix, there are references to Christianity, ancient mythology, Taoism (sic), Buddhism, and a bunch of others that I don't even recognize. In LotR, there is only one thing they are promoting: Christianity and its themes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, I do not see what remains of LotR in PJ's 'LotR' as 'promoting Christianity'. Yes there may be a line or two here and there that are monotheistic [as you above example was]but that is pretty much it.<P> I concede that there is a wide variety of religions/philosophies etc being referenced and drawn upon in Matrix, but as I pointed out above, JRRT also casts a wide net.<P>I do not however think JRRT [much less PJ] is effectively promoting only Christianity [ask Mithadan or Burrahobbit]. JRRT says many times an in many places he was seeking to give England it's own [pre-Christian] mythology. Yes he subtly points to Christ, but more explicitly he points to the Elder and Prose Eddas, the Mabinogion, the Nibelung, Beowulf, Sir Orfeo, etc... Unless one reads his <I>Letters</I> or his biography or some such, one would be free to think whatever one would like as to the relationship of JRRT's references and the religion it was promoting. Of course we know his Catholic roots and can look for them, and indeed find them in Galadriel, the shift of Valar from their Pagan 'god/esses roots to 'angelic' figures. But to say that this is clear in the Movies is I think a seroius overstatment.<P>I will concede that Matrix is ambiguous in it's religio-philisohical themes, thus underlining that the dystopian world of the Matrix is clearly not that of a Christian. <P>But having to me the overall impression was more of Christianity being hinted at than anything else, certainly more than PJ leaving in 'meant to find the Ring' and Arwen's casual mention of the Valar. <P><BR>However, I ask, is the struggle of Good vs. Evil any less clear? Is the theme of self-sacrifice [even in the first movie with Morpheus sacrificing himself for Neo, Neo then trying to sacrifice himself for Morpheus, and thus coming into his own as 'The One'] any less clear? Are the necessities of sometimes needing to buck authority to do what is right, any less clear in either film series?<P>Obviously I could go on. One may not like all the references to other religions, just as one may feel that the Silmarillion is far too pagan, but these are subjective experiences and will differ for each one.<P>To me Neo being carried out seemingly dead in a form clearly recalling Christ being pulled down from the cross and his sacrificing Himself for humanity was far more powerful than any image of sacrife that PJ gives us. Except maybe Shadowfax's sacrificing of Denethor ]<P>As a Christian I do not go to a movie to see my faith justified or even supported, I go to experience art, and to see how it speaks to me. So I did not experience the diversity of references in the Matrix as a hinderance, any more than I do in Tolkien. What I do feel, as I have said before is that I prefer the Matrix because it is purely itself, not a bastardization [meaning literally according to my American Heritage Dictionary: to debase, corrupt] of an already existing work.<P>For me PJ did debase and corrupt Tolkien's LotR. At times he also captured many wonderful scenes [although most of the credit in these instances seems to nbelong to Howe and Lee I am afraid] , but what stands out for me are 'Aragorn', 'Denethor', 'Faramir', 'Gandalf', 'Elrond' and 'Arwen', who are made to say and do things never intended by JRRT and which are so odious at times as to cause many [as these forums show] here to be saddened, and to cause CJRT to say No, to letting PJ do 'The Hobbit'.<p>[ 12:13 PM January 05, 2004: Message edited by: lindil ]