[the phantom]

Hey, I just thought I'd post something from a thread on the books a while back where we were discussing quotes like "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe..." and "Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol...". After another member noticed the ambiguity of the terms in the quotes, I had this to say-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> That is exactly why I never put too much stock in those "greatest" quotes (about Luthien, and about Feanor and Galadriel). I would assume that those quotes mean that in Tolkien's overall definition of greatness (combination of whatever characteristics he thought were the most important) that they came out ahead. But BY NO MEANS do they mean the MOST POWERFUL (or anything else for that matter, they were merely his overall appraisal of their character from his perspective, and possibly he was considering things that we would choose not to and not weighing things that we think are important). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your quote says "she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves remaining in ME". So, what does that actually mean?<P>When a king is called a mighty king, does that mean he is skilled in battle, a great general or commander, rules over a great kingdom, or what? We don't know. And also, just to show the frailty of the quote, note it said "of all the Elves", so technically there could be a mortal man that could be mightier than Galadriel. But that seems ridiculous. As you can see, the quote is just too vague.<P>And now for a demonstration of my point.<P>Here's those two quotes from earlier-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If we treat these quotes the way many like to treat them (with "greatest" meaning anything they decide they want it to mean to support their argument), then Feanor is tied with Galadriel and they're both behind Luthien. But what about this quote from the Sil-<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The mightiest in <I>all parts of body and mind</I>, huh? That doesn't leave much room for competition. Yet, he was named only equal to Galadriel in the "greatness" department (and lesser than Luthien). How does this make sense? I guess because JRRT's ambiguous "greatest" and "mightiest" quotes weren't all inclusive. "Greatest" could mean the best known or the most beloved. "Mightiest" could mean largest quantity when applied to specific traits, but when said in a general sense could mean ruled over the largest realm (or something similar).<P>And notice one of the things Feanor was the mightiest in was "beauty". But wasn't Luthien supposed to be the most beautiful?<P>As you can see, you can't justify anything specific using those vague sort of quotes such as "Galadriel was the mightiest...".<P>Take THAT, anyone who wants to try to prove conclusively and textually that anyone is better than anyone else.<P>Tolkien did us all a favor and left us room to interpret things for ourselves.