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Newly Deceased
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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri
This is Elenhin. I accidentally posted with a wrong ID.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Basically, to assert that the Fall was not due to Morgoth/Satan, and was due instead to some self-corruption of the Children of Illuvatar/God, and to assert that the Fall itself had nothing to do with Death, is incorrect.<hr></blockquote>
The Fall resulted from the actions of Morgoth, but the Fall did not cause Death.
"...my legendarium, especially the 'Downfall of Numenor' which lies immediately behind the Lord of the Rings, is based on
my view: that men are essentially mortal and must not try to become 'immortal' in flesh."
"Since 'mortality' is thus represented as
a special gift of God to the Second Race of the Children (the Eruhini, the Children of the One God) and
not a punishment for a Fall, you may call that 'bad theology'. So it may be, in the primary world, but it is ... a legitimate basis of legends."
Letters, no. 153 (emphasis mine)
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> And to Fall, there must be something to Fall from. Grace and Immortality. The advent of Death comes with the Fall. Death (in Middle-earth) is the Gift of Illuvatar.<hr></blockquote>
They fell from Grace, but not Immortality. Only the Edain said that they were once immortal, but I'd rather trust the Elvish sources instead of Mannish ones as the Elves had been teached by the Valar, who in turn had lived with Eru himself.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> If Man had fallen, and was become corrupted and more corruptible, physically and spiritually, then Death would indeed be a blessing and a gift.<hr></blockquote>
If Iluvatar had intervened in the Fall, why couldn't he have unmade it instead of giving Men a "gift" which looks like a punishment?
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> So which came first, the Fall or the Gift?
If the Gift came before the Fall, then did Illuvatar give it to mitigate the predestined Fall?<hr></blockquote>
I'm sure that the Gift became before the Fall, as the Gift is mentioned in Ainulindale.
"...[Iluvatar] said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Eldar and the Atani! But the Eldar shall be the fairest of earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani (which are Men) I will give a new gift.'
...[Men being the sole masters of themselves in Arda, free from the Music of Ainur which guides all others]...
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men
dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither we [Eldar] know now. ... But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the World (it is said); wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers.
Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and brought evil out of good, and fear out of hope."
Morgoth's Ring, Ainulindale D (emphasis mine)
To me, this seems to imply that originally, the gift of Death was the special feature of Men, the most important feature to distinguish them from the Elves. The last sentence seems to be a reference to the Fall.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Did Morgoth make use of the Gift to induce the Fall? <hr></blockquote>
I believe that staining the Gift
was the Fall (for the most part).
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Or did the Gift come after the Fall? That makes more sense to me. I'll try to read this bit of Legendarium soon.<hr></blockquote>
To me, the texts don't seem to support that; Finrod reacts quite strongly when he first hears such ideas from Andreth.
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Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000431>geetee</A> at: 8/3/01 1:07:57 pm