The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spirit...

obloquy · 08-02-2001, 11:27 AM

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Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri

Thanks, Gil, that's exactly why I believe that Andreth's tale was more than just a fabrication by the jealous Edain. I believe it was a glimpse at what Tolkien was eventually going to build into the real truth of Man's beginning.

He had already begun to question if what the Elves believed was the absolute truth, as we see in his tentative revamping of the story of the Sun and Moon. Tolkien began to make his world more believable as an actual alternate reality within our same world. Therefore, for example, even though the Elves themselves were fictional, they could not -- since they were instructed by the Gods and creators of their world -- subscribe to a notion so scientifically implausible as the Silmarillion account of the origin of the Sun and Moon.

I don't think he planned to make the Elves' beliefs into simply their own version of the legends, however, since the Elves were, as I said, taught by the Gods. I think that he was going to change what they knew to fit what he was designing. If he wanted them to be scientifically correct, would he have wanted them also to be religiously correct? Or at least not contradictory to his personal religious faith. It is possible that he would have simply made the Elves' ideas of Man's early days and the purpose of His mortality unclear or speculative on their part.

Tolkien believed that the Bible's account of the Fall of Man was a truth of our earth: the true beginning of Mankind's mortality. I think it highly likely that he intended to make it also a truth of his Middle-earth. Athrabeth is a very late piece of writing, if I'm not mistaken, and also the only mention of this "legend" of the Edain. Maybe he was only beginning to consider this possibility.

Of course, there is a problem in all of this. If Tolkien's Edain became the descendants of Christianity's Adam and Eve, then Melkor would become Satan, and Manwe, likely, would become Jesus. While the implication has always been there, it hasn't been religious so much as an interesting account of another culture's version of the story. Just good, beautiful fun. With the names of characters that so many people put faith in (myself included) as real entities, Tolkien would have given his world a sacrilegious air that I doubt many would have enjoyed.

I expect he saw this even more clearly than I do and thus found a dilemma in his Elves being scientifically all-knowing, but not "religiously".

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000090>obloquy</A> at: 8/2/01 1:34:34 pm

08-02-2001, 11:27 AM	#19
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 45</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Why is enigma pretty much tied with maia and earth spiri Thanks, Gil, that's exactly why I believe that Andreth's tale was more than just a fabrication by the jealous Edain. I believe it was a glimpse at what Tolkien was eventually going to build into the real truth of Man's beginning. He had already begun to question if what the Elves believed was the absolute truth, as we see in his tentative revamping of the story of the Sun and Moon. Tolkien began to make his world more believable as an actual alternate reality within our same world. Therefore, for example, even though the Elves themselves were fictional, they could not -- since they were instructed by the Gods and creators of their world -- subscribe to a notion so scientifically implausible as the Silmarillion account of the origin of the Sun and Moon. I don't think he planned to make the Elves' beliefs into simply their own version of the legends, however, since the Elves were, as I said, taught by the Gods. I think that he was going to change what they knew to fit what he was designing. If he wanted them to be scientifically correct, would he have wanted them also to be religiously correct? Or at least not contradictory to his personal religious faith. It is possible that he would have simply made the Elves' ideas of Man's early days and the purpose of His mortality unclear or speculative on their part. Tolkien believed that the Bible's account of the Fall of Man was a truth of our earth: the true beginning of Mankind's mortality. I think it highly likely that he intended to make it also a truth of his Middle-earth. Athrabeth is a very late piece of writing, if I'm not mistaken, and also the only mention of this "legend" of the Edain. Maybe he was only beginning to consider this possibility. Of course, there is a problem in all of this. If Tolkien's Edain became the descendants of Christianity's Adam and Eve, then Melkor would become Satan, and Manwe, likely, would become Jesus. While the implication has always been there, it hasn't been religious so much as an interesting account of another culture's version of the story. Just good, beautiful fun. With the names of characters that so many people put faith in (myself included) as real entities, Tolkien would have given his world a sacrilegious air that I doubt many would have enjoyed. I expect he saw this even more clearly than I do and thus found a dilemma in his Elves being scientifically all-knowing, but not "religiously". </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000090>obloquy</A> at: 8/2/01 1:34:34 pm