The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Cookie Cutter Characters--Repetition Through Ancestry

Angry Hill Troll · 02-01-2003, 05:13 PM

Another difference between Elrond and Thingol is that Elrond actively helps Aragorn fulfill the marriage requirement. He 1) raises Aragorn at Rivendell knowing the prophesy of his future 2) sends his sons to fight alongside Aragorn when he could just have easily have claimed he needed them to defend Rivendell. 3) reminds Aragorn of Malbeth's prophesy regarding the paths of the Dead, which was a key point in the outcome of the battle.

Thingol on the other hand, struck me as hoping Beren would fail, as an elaborate scheme to get rid of him.

Iarwain, I'm trying to understand your use ot the "cookie cutter" term. It strikes me as pejorative, as if Tolkien ran out of good ideas for characters. I'm not sure how you really mean the term though.

One interesting point is that Tolkien actually draws attention to the parallel you make, by having Aragorn call Arwen "Tinuviel" when he first meets her. If he had simply run out of character ideas, why would he give us an obvious reminder like that of his lack of imagination?

If we examine Tolkien's world view as expressed through The Music of the Ainur, there are musical themes which are repeated. Certainly this is true in virtually all pieces of music, and I think Tolkien saw history as being the same way (involving repetitive elements), hence his choice of music as the metaphor. In particular, Melkor's discordant music was "one theme repeated endlessly" while the harmonious themes of the other Ainur also had repetitive elements, but less annoyingly so.

One particular repetition is Fëanor/Celebrimbor.

Fëanor made the three silmarils, which were stolen by Morgoth, causing a long and tragic war, and ultimately ended up in Air (Earendil), Water (Maglor) and Fire/Earth (Maédhros).

Celebrimbor his grandson made the three elven rings, which represented Air (Vilya, which ended up in the possession of Earendil's son Elrond), Water (Nenya), and Fire (Narya). Morgoth's former protegé Sauron stole them (figuratively, by making the One Ring to control them) resulting in a long and tragic war.

[ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

02-01-2003, 05:13 PM	#6
Angry Hill Troll Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ephel Duath Posts: 115	Another difference between Elrond and Thingol is that Elrond actively helps Aragorn fulfill the marriage requirement. He 1) raises Aragorn at Rivendell knowing the prophesy of his future 2) sends his sons to fight alongside Aragorn when he could just have easily have claimed he needed them to defend Rivendell. 3) reminds Aragorn of Malbeth's prophesy regarding the paths of the Dead, which was a key point in the outcome of the battle. Thingol on the other hand, struck me as hoping Beren would fail, as an elaborate scheme to get rid of him. Iarwain, I'm trying to understand your use ot the "cookie cutter" term. It strikes me as pejorative, as if Tolkien ran out of good ideas for characters. I'm not sure how you really mean the term though. One interesting point is that Tolkien actually draws attention to the parallel you make, by having Aragorn call Arwen "Tinuviel" when he first meets her. If he had simply run out of character ideas, why would he give us an obvious reminder like that of his lack of imagination? If we examine Tolkien's world view as expressed through The Music of the Ainur, there are musical themes which are repeated. Certainly this is true in virtually all pieces of music, and I think Tolkien saw history as being the same way (involving repetitive elements), hence his choice of music as the metaphor. In particular, Melkor's discordant music was "one theme repeated endlessly" while the harmonious themes of the other Ainur also had repetitive elements, but less annoyingly so. One particular repetition is Fëanor/Celebrimbor. Fëanor made the three silmarils, which were stolen by Morgoth, causing a long and tragic war, and ultimately ended up in Air (Earendil), Water (Maglor) and Fire/Earth (Maédhros). Celebrimbor his grandson made the three elven rings, which represented Air (Vilya, which ended up in the possession of Earendil's son Elrond), Water (Nenya), and Fire (Narya). Morgoth's former protegé Sauron stole them (figuratively, by making the One Ring to control them) resulting in a long and tragic war. [ February 01, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]