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***Mister Underhill*** · 09-10-2000, 08:34 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: elven language roots

Sorry, can't seem to resist reviving this thread. Sharku, if you want to read the thoughts of someone who has spent a lot of time pondering philological issues in JRRT's work, check out this link:

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/www.uib.no/People/hnohf/</a>

The site's author has some interesting and much more insightful thoughts into your question: what rules, if any, did Sauron break (in creating the Black Speech)? Here's a sample: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "The orcs and goblins had languages of their own, as hideous as all things that they made or used, and since some remnant of good will, and true thought and perception, is required to keep even a base language alive and useful even for base purposes, their tongues were endlessly diversified in form, as they were deadly monotonous in purport, fluent only in the expression of abuse, of hatred and fear" (PM:21). Indeed "these creatures, being filled with malice, hating even their own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes" (LotR Appendix F). Hence there is no single "Orkish" language for us to analyze. The only thing that seems to be true of all Orkish languages at all times is that they were "hideous and foul and utterly unlike the languages of the Quendi" (LR:178) . Indeed "Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words and things" (Appendix F). Hence their attitude towards Language was totally different from that of the Elves, who loved and cultivated their tongue. Tolkien was himself a philologist, which title literally implies lover or friend of words, and in his invented world, total absence of love for language could only be a characteristic of evil.

The diversity and mutability of the Orkish tongues was of course an obstacle for a Dark Power using Orcs as its storm-troopers. So for the purpose of efficient administration (sc. absolute totalitarianism), Sauron took the time to make an Esperanto for his servants - the sole known constructed language in Arda, if we don't count the sign-language (iglishmêk) of the Dwarves<hr></blockquote>

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 9/10/00 10:46:55 am

09-10-2000, 08:34 AM	#10
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: elven language roots Sorry, can't seem to resist reviving this thread. Sharku, if you want to read the thoughts of someone who has spent a lot of time pondering philological issues in JRRT's work, check out this link: http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/www.uib.no/People/hnohf/</a> The site's author has some interesting and much more insightful thoughts into your question: what rules, if any, did Sauron break (in creating the Black Speech)? Here's a sample: <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> "The orcs and goblins had languages of their own, as hideous as all things that they made or used, and since some remnant of good will, and true thought and perception, is required to keep even a base language alive and useful even for base purposes, their tongues were endlessly diversified in form, as they were deadly monotonous in purport, fluent only in the expression of abuse, of hatred and fear" (PM:21). Indeed "these creatures, being filled with malice, hating even their own kind, quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes" (LotR Appendix F). Hence there is no single "Orkish" language for us to analyze. The only thing that seems to be true of all Orkish languages at all times is that they were "hideous and foul and utterly unlike the languages of the Quendi" (LR:178) . Indeed "Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words and things" (Appendix F). Hence their attitude towards Language was totally different from that of the Elves, who loved and cultivated their tongue. Tolkien was himself a philologist, which title literally implies lover or friend of words, and in his invented world, total absence of love for language could only be a characteristic of evil. The diversity and mutability of the Orkish tongues was of course an obstacle for a Dark Power using Orcs as its storm-troopers. So for the purpose of efficient administration (sc. absolute totalitarianism), Sauron took the time to make an Esperanto for his servants - the sole known constructed language in Arda, if we don't count the sign-language (iglishmêk) of the Dwarves<hr></blockquote> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 9/10/00 10:46:55 am*