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Man-of-the-Wold · 01-20-2002, 06:42 AM

Well, there is some confusion about Celeborn's and Galadriel's whereabouts during the Second and much of the Third Age, but the Unfinished Tales provides an excellent set of alternative constructions by Tolkien. Some are not internally very sound, and they certainly don't agree with one another.

In his later years, JRRT, from what I'm reading in Letters... and The History... too, was developing a very ambitious history for Galadriel, and building her up to have been a much more complex and distinctive then what The Silmirillion (as it was ultimately published) presented. The Lord of the Rings has elements that hint at this, but it touches on Galadriel's past mysteriously. Unfortunately, he was mortal, and not too diligent about finalizing his total vision of Middle-Earth.

So, the following is how I tend to summarize the Galadriel story (off the top of my head) in a way that complements the published works -- i.e., the sacred texts:

In the First Age, Galadriel and Celeborn ("G&C") were hanging in Doriath. She was a very notable leader of the Noldorin exiles, and her beauty, strength of will, and inner power put her on a par with even Feanor among the decendents of Finwe.

Celeborn was in effect her second cousin, being a grandchild of Elmo, who like Olwe was a brother of Elu Thingol. They married sometime then. [I personally believe that in time, they left Doriath and explored east of the Ered Luin for many years. This would provide consistency with her statement to Frodo in Book II (although Tolkien may have had a more richer tale in mind then, however), and it would explain why there is no mention of them in The Silmirillion from before the Dagor Bragollach until the very end.]

At the start of the Second Age there is considerable question about whether the Valar expressively banned Galadriel from returning to Eldamar, because she was one (the last) of the rebellion's leaders. I believe that there was no formal ban as such, and that the Valar were in a forgiving mood, but that there was in effect a ban (albeit rather self-imposed) because of the unavoidability for Galadriel in having to have sought pardon in returning, combined with her own pride, desire to do great things, and concern with Middle Earth in the face of evil clearly survived Morgoth, as well as Celeborn's reluctance to leave then.

I think that this more nuanced interpretation of the "ban" makes Galadriel's realization and humility in Book II at the Mirror with Frodo all the more special and profound. [And, I daresay, Cate Blanchett, nailed it!] For at that point, she knew that her part was fulfilled, and that her pride and ambitions absolved, whereas she had not previously known of her longing for absolution. Total epiphany.

In any event, at the beginning of the Second Age, G&C were in Lindon with Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Elrond, but that during those early centuries they led Grey/Green/High-Elves eastward, initially settling in Evendim for a time, which is where Celebrian may have been born. [To make Amroth their son is not possible given the published works, and there is plenty of unpublished material that fully identifies him as the son of another Sindarin lord, who was a King of Lothlorien, killed by the Third Age].

As for G&C, it is clear that they did not permanently live together in Lothlorien or rule it, as "Lady and Lord," until after the coming of the Balrog to Moria, and Amroth's subsequent departure from Lothlorien, which left the predominantly Silvan Elves of that realm without adequate leadership.

So, between dwelling in Lindon/Evendim at the beginning of the Second Age -- and their taking up governance in Lothlorien nearly two-thirds of the way into the Third Age -- G&C either together or separately spent significant time in several places, including: Eregion, Lothlorien, Rivendell, Lindon, Edhellond on the Bay of Belfalas and possibly Greenwood the Great or points east of the Great River.

The following is a "more or less" chronological set of significant actions and events that they took or were involved with during that period, and until their leaving Middle-Earth:[LIST][*]G&C (and others) lead Eldar, mostly Noldor, in establishing the realm of Eregion[*]Galadriel treats with and befriends (sans Celeborn, of course) the dwarves of Khazad-dum (maybe traveling through it between Eregion and Lothlorien)[*]Galadriel helps organize the Silvan Elves of that region to better resist the vague evil emanating from the East[*]Galadriel receives the (2nd) Elessar from Celebrimbor, which she uses for the strengthening of Lothlorien during the Second Age[*]Galadriel forbids Annatar (Sauron) from entering Lothlorien, spurning his entreaties among Elves that harken to her, Celeborn's or Gil-Galad's doubts and warnings[*]Discord between G&C and Celebrimbor/elven-smith guild concerning the lordship and future direction of Eregion, perhaps influenced by Annatar (Sauron)[*]Sauron's identity and treachery is revealed to Celebrimbor, and he entrusts Nenya (Ring of Water, Adament, White Ring) to Galadriel, while giving Vilya and Narya to Gil-Galad/Cirdan.[*]Sauron attacks Eregion, he is met by forces led by Celeborn, but along with Elrond's army out of Lindon, is repulsed and retreats to Imladris[*]Eregion overrun, Ost-in-Edhil destroyed, Celebrimbor killed, and the other 15 or 16 rings (assuming that Durin's folk may have received theirs directly) are seized and later distributed by Sauron; some Noldorin refugees flee through Moria to Lothlorien, where Galadriel likely is at that time, while most survivors make it to Imladris.[*]Elves from Lothlorien and Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron's forces from the rear, but are driven back, at which time Moria's west door is shut, and Imladris is besieged as Eriador is overrun[*]Gil-Galad and the Elves of Lindon (because of the Numenorean army and navy, arriving in the nick of time) defeat Sauron at Sarn Ford and near what became Tharbad[*]Western lands liberated as the army of Mordor is routed, not least by forces issuing from Imladris and led by Elrond, and likely Celeborn too[*]First White Council; Elrond encounters and falls in love with Celebrian, while G&C are abiding in Imladris[*]Last Alliance of Elves and Men; Sindarin-led Silvan Elves fight; Celeborn probably also participates [conceivably leading a contingency from Edhellond directly to Anarion's aid][*]Sauron defeated (for a time), One ring taken, but lost when Isildur perishes at the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. Elves wield and create great good with Three Rings.[*]Elrond & Celebrian wed; Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen born; Galadriel gives Celebrian the Elessar, later received by Arwen [*]Arrival of the Istari; evil increasingly spreads through Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood); Third-age conventions of the White Council[*]Dol Guldor manifests itself as dark citidel of a "Necromancer;" Angmar rises and attacks Arnor, Elves of Lothlorien aid in the containment of Angmar; Rivendell at times besieged; Arnor eventually conquered, but Realm of Angmar vanquished by combined forces of Gondor, Elves and others.[*]Dwarves of Moria flee Balrog; Amroth and Nimrodel leave Lothlorien to sail into West but lost in the sea/hills of Gondor.[*]G&C take up permanent residence in Lothlorien; Lothlorien transformed by power of Galadriel and Nenya, which is used to counter growing menace of Dol Guldor[*]Gandalf forces Sauron's temporary retreat from Dol Guldor (Watchful Peace)[*]Watchful Peace ends; Smeagol finds One Ring and hides in Misty Mountains[*]Galadriel assists in the Riding of Eorlingas to the Battle of the Field Celebrant[*]Celebrian captured in Redhorn Pass and tormented; sails into West[*]Battle of the Gates of Moria[*]Increasing corruption of Saruman, especially as he resents Galadriel's and the other Eldar's preference for Gandalf, who verifies the Necromancer to be Sauron returned[*]Bilbo finds One Ring; final meeting of White Council and the driving out/feigning of Sauron, before he declares himself from Barad-dur[*]Aragorn comes to Lothlorien, meets Arwen, and gives Ring of Barahir (originally belonging to Galadriel's brother, Finrod) to Arwen as token of betrothel[*]Fellowship of the Ring, meeting of Galadriel and the Ringbearer[*]War of the Ring; Lothlorien attacked three times but prevails; Dol Goldor overthrown by Celeborn and destroyed by Galadriel; East Lorien established as Celeborn's domain in Southern Mirkwood[*]Riding of the fair folk to Gondor; wedding of Arwen and Aragorn; G&C return to Lothlorien from Hollin[*]Sailing of the ringbearers; Galadriel finally returns to Eldamar; Lothlorien largely deserted[*]Celeborn stays in Imladris with Elrond's sons; passing of Arwen[*]Celeborn eventually goes into the West, quite possibly with Cirdan and the Last Ship.

************

Namariae

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

01-20-2002, 06:42 AM	#5
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Well, there is some confusion about Celeborn's and Galadriel's whereabouts during the Second and much of the Third Age, but the Unfinished Tales provides an excellent set of alternative constructions by Tolkien. Some are not internally very sound, and they certainly don't agree with one another. In his later years, JRRT, from what I'm reading in Letters... and The History... too, was developing a very ambitious history for Galadriel, and building her up to have been a much more complex and distinctive then what The Silmirillion (as it was ultimately published) presented. The Lord of the Rings has elements that hint at this, but it touches on Galadriel's past mysteriously. Unfortunately, he was mortal, and not too diligent about finalizing his total vision of Middle-Earth. So, the following is how I tend to summarize the Galadriel story (off the top of my head) in a way that complements the published works -- i.e., the sacred texts: In the First Age, Galadriel and Celeborn ("G&C") were hanging in Doriath. She was a very notable leader of the Noldorin exiles, and her beauty, strength of will, and inner power put her on a par with even Feanor among the decendents of Finwe. Celeborn was in effect her second cousin, being a grandchild of Elmo, who like Olwe was a brother of Elu Thingol. They married sometime then. [I personally believe that in time, they left Doriath and explored east of the Ered Luin for many years. This would provide consistency with her statement to Frodo in Book II (although Tolkien may have had a more richer tale in mind then, however), and it would explain why there is no mention of them in The Silmirillion from before the Dagor Bragollach until the very end.] At the start of the Second Age there is considerable question about whether the Valar expressively banned Galadriel from returning to Eldamar, because she was one (the last) of the rebellion's leaders. I believe that there was no formal ban as such, and that the Valar were in a forgiving mood, but that there was in effect a ban (albeit rather self-imposed) because of the unavoidability for Galadriel in having to have sought pardon in returning, combined with her own pride, desire to do great things, and concern with Middle Earth in the face of evil clearly survived Morgoth, as well as Celeborn's reluctance to leave then. I think that this more nuanced interpretation of the "ban" makes Galadriel's realization and humility in Book II at the Mirror with Frodo all the more special and profound. [And, I daresay, Cate Blanchett, nailed it!] For at that point, she knew that her part was fulfilled, and that her pride and ambitions absolved, whereas she had not previously known of her longing for absolution. Total epiphany. In any event, at the beginning of the Second Age, G&C were in Lindon with Gil-Galad, Cirdan and Elrond, but that during those early centuries they led Grey/Green/High-Elves eastward, initially settling in Evendim for a time, which is where Celebrian may have been born. [To make Amroth their son is not possible given the published works, and there is plenty of unpublished material that fully identifies him as the son of another Sindarin lord, who was a King of Lothlorien, killed by the Third Age]. As for G&C, it is clear that they did not permanently live together in Lothlorien or rule it, as "Lady and Lord," until after the coming of the Balrog to Moria, and Amroth's subsequent departure from Lothlorien, which left the predominantly Silvan Elves of that realm without adequate leadership. So, between dwelling in Lindon/Evendim at the beginning of the Second Age -- and their taking up governance in Lothlorien nearly two-thirds of the way into the Third Age -- G&C either together or separately spent significant time in several places, including: Eregion, Lothlorien, Rivendell, Lindon, Edhellond on the Bay of Belfalas and possibly Greenwood the Great or points east of the Great River. The following is a "more or less" chronological set of significant actions and events that they took or were involved with during that period, and until their leaving Middle-Earth:[LIST][]G&C (and others) lead Eldar, mostly Noldor, in establishing the realm of Eregion[]Galadriel treats with and befriends (sans Celeborn, of course) the dwarves of Khazad-dum (maybe traveling through it between Eregion and Lothlorien)[]Galadriel helps organize the Silvan Elves of that region to better resist the vague evil emanating from the East[]Galadriel receives the (2nd) Elessar from Celebrimbor, which she uses for the strengthening of Lothlorien during the Second Age[]Galadriel forbids Annatar (Sauron) from entering Lothlorien, spurning his entreaties among Elves that harken to her, Celeborn's or Gil-Galad's doubts and warnings[]Discord between G&C and Celebrimbor/elven-smith guild concerning the lordship and future direction of Eregion, perhaps influenced by Annatar (Sauron)[]Sauron's identity and treachery is revealed to Celebrimbor, and he entrusts Nenya (Ring of Water, Adament, White Ring) to Galadriel, while giving Vilya and Narya to Gil-Galad/Cirdan.[]Sauron attacks Eregion, he is met by forces led by Celeborn, but along with Elrond's army out of Lindon, is repulsed and retreats to Imladris[]Eregion overrun, Ost-in-Edhil destroyed, Celebrimbor killed, and the other 15 or 16 rings (assuming that Durin's folk may have received theirs directly) are seized and later distributed by Sauron; some Noldorin refugees flee through Moria to Lothlorien, where Galadriel likely is at that time, while most survivors make it to Imladris.[]Elves from Lothlorien and Dwarves from Moria attack Sauron's forces from the rear, but are driven back, at which time Moria's west door is shut, and Imladris is besieged as Eriador is overrun[]Gil-Galad and the Elves of Lindon (because of the Numenorean army and navy, arriving in the nick of time) defeat Sauron at Sarn Ford and near what became Tharbad[]Western lands liberated as the army of Mordor is routed, not least by forces issuing from Imladris and led by Elrond, and likely Celeborn too[]First White Council; Elrond encounters and falls in love with Celebrian, while G&C are abiding in Imladris[]Last Alliance of Elves and Men; Sindarin-led Silvan Elves fight; Celeborn probably also participates [conceivably leading a contingency from Edhellond directly to Anarion's aid][]Sauron defeated (for a time), One ring taken, but lost when Isildur perishes at the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. Elves wield and create great good with Three Rings.[]Elrond & Celebrian wed; Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen born; Galadriel gives Celebrian the Elessar, later received by Arwen []Arrival of the Istari; evil increasingly spreads through Greenwood the Great (Mirkwood); Third-age conventions of the White Council[]Dol Guldor manifests itself as dark citidel of a "Necromancer;" Angmar rises and attacks Arnor, Elves of Lothlorien aid in the containment of Angmar; Rivendell at times besieged; Arnor eventually conquered, but Realm of Angmar vanquished by combined forces of Gondor, Elves and others.[]Dwarves of Moria flee Balrog; Amroth and Nimrodel leave Lothlorien to sail into West but lost in the sea/hills of Gondor.[]G&C take up permanent residence in Lothlorien; Lothlorien transformed by power of Galadriel and Nenya, which is used to counter growing menace of Dol Guldor[]Gandalf forces Sauron's temporary retreat from Dol Guldor (Watchful Peace)[]Watchful Peace ends; Smeagol finds One Ring and hides in Misty Mountains[]Galadriel assists in the Riding of Eorlingas to the Battle of the Field Celebrant[]Celebrian captured in Redhorn Pass and tormented; sails into West[]Battle of the Gates of Moria[]Increasing corruption of Saruman, especially as he resents Galadriel's and the other Eldar's preference for Gandalf, who verifies the Necromancer to be Sauron returned[]Bilbo finds One Ring; final meeting of White Council and the driving out/feigning of Sauron, before he declares himself from Barad-dur[]Aragorn comes to Lothlorien, meets Arwen, and gives Ring of Barahir (originally belonging to Galadriel's brother, Finrod) to Arwen as token of betrothel[]Fellowship of the Ring, meeting of Galadriel and the Ringbearer[]War of the Ring; Lothlorien attacked three times but prevails; Dol Goldor overthrown by Celeborn and destroyed by Galadriel; East Lorien established as Celeborn's domain in Southern Mirkwood[]Riding of the fair folk to Gondor; wedding of Arwen and Aragorn; G&C return to Lothlorien from Hollin[]Sailing of the ringbearers; Galadriel finally returns to Eldamar; Lothlorien largely deserted[]Celeborn stays in Imladris with Elrond's sons; passing of Arwen[]Celeborn eventually goes into the West, quite possibly with Cirdan and the Last Ship. ************ Namariae [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ] __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.