[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>quote:<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Arwen calling the River to destroy the Nazgul just got me mad, the river is under the command of Lord Elrond, and none other...<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>I recall Gandalf and Glorfindal having something to do with it, but Arwen was just a pandering to feminists and people who wanted more girl action, without having to wait until Return of the King. That, and I think Liv Tyler wanted some extra screen time.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I must also agree with the necessity of making Arwen an actual character, rather than a mere suggestion, with only two brief appearances in the story. I am OK with the replacement of Glorfindel in the Flight to the Ford. I am even coming to terms with Arwen carrying Frodo on Asfaloth (even though she took Glorfindel's horse!). The only problem I still have with this scene is that there is no inkling that Frodo knows what is going on. Even had he been secure in Arwen's grasp, he could have at least heard the call of the Ringwraiths ("to Mordor we will take you!") along with their derisive laughs and risen out of the deathly swoon to defy them with his last strength. Even in Arwen's arms he could have done this, although it would not have had as much power as his lone stand against the Nine at the Ford in the book. So, I think my main problem with Arwen in that scene is not really her fault at all. It is the fact that she is the symbol of a large change in Frodo's character that bothered me greatly. I am coming to believe, however, that perhaps her words as she is holding the stricken Frodo no the other side of the Bruinen "what grace is given me..let it pass to him" may be a nod to her gift to Frodo at the end of ROTK, although it would take some reading into the text to make this so...I suppose I still have the ROTK EE to wait for, but I don't think that she gives Frodo anything, since he doesn't have it at the end....too bad!<P>As for Arwen calling the Bruinen to flood, it seems more immediately logical and requires less exposition than explaining that this Elf-chick who is riding over the river has to wait for the command of two other guys (hey! how'd Gandalf get there?) to cross and then how'd these guys know when to call the river? It is much more direct. Of course, one could interpret it as Arwen simply saying the prescribed words to set off what Elrond and Gandalf have already set in place--an implied reliance on them without necessity of exposition at the time of crisis. <P><B>Knight</B>, your opinion of Liv-Arwen is legend here on the Downs, but I think <B>Saucepan Man</B>'s points about the necessity of a romantic story axis and the necessity also of the female part of this axis to be sufficiently fleshed out are valid ones. It is a pity that the character of Arwen is made the scapegoat, because she is obviously added in in many places where she was not chronologically or physically present in the books. Sure, people complain about Haldir and the Elves at Helm's Deep, but not nearly as much. <P>Personally, I find Elrond's words to his daughter about the inevitability of the outcome of her love for Aragorn, with the images of the fading Elf-realms and stone tomb of Aragorn in the future to be one of the most sublime sequences in the Two Towers movie. It captures an essence of fading, the quintessential nature of the Elves. <P>While we're on the Arwen theme, I must also address the idea of her 'sickness' in ROTK, as, for me, it merely showed her adjustment to an irrevocable choice. She chose to be mortal, and thus she is become tied to the present of the world and the outcome of the War of the Ring bears more closely on her. I can see why this would be distressing to Elrond, but the flaw I see here is the reduction of the obvious idea--(Arwen's fate is tied to the fate of the Ring because she is mortal. All mortals' fates are tied to the Ring...) to a motivation for Aragorn to take up the sword Anduril and finally take up his responsibility. I somehow think this was a way of making the responsibility a personal one and somewhat cheapening the motivation of Aragorn for doing his duty. I do think that it can be overlooked to an extent, though, as the motivation for taking the extreme path (Paths of the Dead) is well accounted for by making it obvious that the Rohirrim are not strong enough to take out the attacking forces of Sauron without help. But, as for the actual 'sickness,' I see that as something that distresses Elrond, for it is strange to the Elves, but familiar for him, as his brother also made that choice. (Wow! Wouldn't it be strange to be in Elrond's shoes? Aragorn is something like his great-great-great-etc. etc. descendant through his brother, who died countless years ago...it just struck me as a real out-of-reality moment!) <P>OK, getting off the track now...I think I'll stop here!<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta