The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - why don't people like arwen in the movie?

01-31-2003, 11:49 AM

Oh, my.. there is so much to respond to, I hardly know where to begin.First, though, let me start by apologizing to Lily Ahern for getting away from the subject of Arwen in the movies! I just think I should finish what I started here. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Happy haunting Rindowen. Wow! You have certainly whipped up a hornet's nest (to mix my metaphors), but then discussion of this particular topic always seems to do just that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Saucepan Man, yes, I did stir a hornet's nest! And I think some here would like to have stopped me! However, I am not afraid to create a stir whatsoever. Isn't that why we are here... to toss around opposing views and maybe even LEARN something from others? If we came to these threads and never questioned anyone, what would be the point?Also from Saucepan Man: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> lindil, I don't think that Rindowen was seeking to stifle people's opinions about the films. I interpret this simply as a graphic illustration of Rindowen's opinion that Jackson had a very difficult task and that it would have been nigh on impossible for anyone to make a commercially successful film that would have satisfied every fan of JRRT's works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, you are so right on there, Man! I never once said, "Shut up, folks!" I was simply questioning why we should be so hard on PJ for creating the work he created. Lindil said that he thought seeing the movie BEFORE reading the books would jade people's view of the books, and I completely understand where he is coming from on that. BUT! Does this mean, then, that no one should EVER make a movie of a book unless they follow every, single detail simply so the audience will never have a skewed vision of the book??Also, when I said that LoTR is fiction and not something to get so incredibly emotional about, I'm afriad I didn't make myself all that clear. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is where I don't agree with you, Rindowen. Great works of literature (as with any form of art) are just the sort of things that we should get emotional about. I too have an emotional attachment to the books, having first read them some 25 years ago. But I don't find that this precludes my enjoyment of the films. Nor do the films impair the emotion that I feel for the books. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I completely agree with you, Man. What I was trying to say was, actually, that this work of fiction isn't something, in MY humble opinion, that should generate so much anger and ill-feelings... That there are far more important things in this universe to use our energy toward. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That said, I think it is important to note that LoTR is fiction and not something to get so incredibly emotional about! It is a brilliant work, certainly! But is it worth being disrespectful to others?! I choose to think not.[QUOTE]If you want to get angry, get angry.. by all means! I'm not telling ANYONE what to do or feel... But I'm trying to get folks to consider another option. Criticism is WONDERFUL! But it can be done respectfully and helpfully. [QUOTE] lindil is right. Too many times have I been told to stop complaining about something (usually something in the movies), and especially when it's in a thread where half or the whole is based on criticisms and complaints. And then sometimes I got so fed up, I told or asked them to leave the thread. They actually should have left if they were going to complain about us complaining about the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Willie, if you read through all the thread, you will notice that I never once said, "I think you should stop complaining!" What I was trying to do, obviously unsuccessfuly, was to say that there are GOOD and BAD ways of criticizing.. AND that there is a difference between critiquing certain aspects of the film and making blanket statements about how PJ is a sell-out, etc. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And I just remembered another thing. This thread is a discussion about why you do NOT like Arwen in the movies, so none of us want to hear why you do like her in the movies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I know this point has already been made (Thanks, Diamond18!), so I'll let it go. But I just want to also point out that Willie is trying to speak for everyone here, and THAT is not allowed either! (BTW, Lindil, if you would like to forward me all of the "RULES" for these discussion threads, I'll be happy to look them over and either comply or get out of town! Just know that I never broke the rule that you stated... I never said, "Stop complaining," and left it at that! I said, in a sense, "Why are you complaining? Do you think you could do better?") I think Saucepan Man said what I was getting at in just a few short phrases: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And I have no problem with you disliking the films. I am just interested in finding out why you feel so strongly about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I also wanted to know why people felt it was necessary to call PJ a sell-out. Lindil, you seem to have taken this as a personal attack: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I am sorry, how was I disrespectful? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I never said, "You, Lindil, were disrespectful!" I said "people" were being disrespectful... and, forgive me, but I don't want to take the time here to scan through all of the threads again and call EVERY ONE of those who were out. But here is one fine example from Willie: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And PJ, I believe, wanted to get his greedy little hands on some of the profits.... ...That's one way I view him as a sell out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In that same entry, Willie said that he could have predicted exactly what Jackson would do, in terms of selling out. THIS is the type of criticism that I was trying to call out in my original post!Then, in response to my saying that people shouldn't be so hard on PJ, Lindil responds with this little ditty: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As I said before I don't hate the movies, but it is sad that he succombed to the old saying about editors:They are like dogs... because they don't like the smell of anything unless it has their pi$$ on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I simply cannot see why someone has to use such harsh language toward a person they don't even KNOW!!NOW are we all on the same page?Here is my main issue now... How can you, Lindil, tell me that I have no right to tell people to stop complaining (even when I never said or even implied anything of the sort) and then tell me what phrases I can and cannot use?! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I realize you are new here, so this may perhaps be new , if you have not been lurking for a while. So I do not wish to be a ton of bricks coming down on you. But please do not resort to the 'make your own movie line' anymore. It is a very worn-out and authoritatively proscribed reaction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you for analyzing me and my reaction.. But challenging someone to make a better movie is something I MAY do here! As Saucepan Man pointed out, I was merely suggesting that PJ did a great job, and saying that he "sold-out" and bastardized the book.. well, is just isn't acceptable to me. Those who choose to put a man down for his interpretation and his art are, perhaps, the ones who should go elsewhere... Willie also said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Rindowen, maybe the books dont mean as much to you as they do to me, but try to understand where we're coming from. Take the BarrowDowns for example. After a while, this place will almost feel like home to you. I love the atmosphere at this site. I've only been here for about 3 months, yet it feels like I've been here for ages. When this place becomes that close to you, you'll see what I mean. If you got in an argument over this site, and you were defending this site, how would you feel if someone told you not to get so emotional over it? You'd probably feel shocked, angry, insulted, and many more feelings, but most of all, you wouldn't like it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, yes, I DO get emotional about books. But do I "name call" those who do not make the movie about the book EXACTLY as the book was written? NO! I may say that I would have liked to have seen something done differently and point those things out... but I wouldn't put a PERSON down for what they did. Your analogy was fine, although perhaps a bit misguided! Yes, I will defend something I feel is worth defending (i.e. Barrow Downs or a book or a religion), but I will NOT INSULT the person who I am challenging.Criticizing vs. Insulting... It's actually THAT simple! There is a difference and THIS is the only thing that I was trying to point out! It isn't against the rules! But is SHOULD be against the rules to JUDGE a person, whether or NOT they happen to be directly involved in this thread!*******************************And I am still sticking to my original post, in that I appreciate what PJ was trying to do with the Arwen roll.

01-31-2003, 11:49 AM	#80
Rindowen Guest Posts: n/a	Oh, my.. there is so much to respond to, I hardly know where to begin.<P>First, though, let me start by apologizing to Lily Ahern for getting away from the subject of Arwen in the movies! I just think I should finish what I started here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Happy haunting Rindowen. Wow! You have certainly whipped up a hornet's nest (to mix my metaphors), but then discussion of this particular topic always seems to do just that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Saucepan Man, yes, I did stir a hornet's nest! And I think some here would like to have stopped me! However, I am not afraid to create a stir whatsoever. Isn't that why we are here... to toss around opposing views and maybe even LEARN something from others? If we came to these threads and never questioned anyone, what would be the point?<P>Also from Saucepan Man:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> lindil, I don't think that Rindowen was seeking to stifle people's opinions about the films. I interpret this simply as a graphic illustration of Rindowen's opinion that Jackson had a very difficult task and that it would have been nigh on impossible for anyone to make a commercially successful film that would have satisfied every fan of JRRT's works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, you are so right on there, Man! I never once said, "Shut up, folks!" I was simply questioning why we should be so hard on PJ for creating the work he created. Lindil said that he thought seeing the movie BEFORE reading the books would jade people's view of the books, and I completely understand where he is coming from on that. BUT! Does this mean, then, that no one should EVER make a movie of a book unless they follow every, single detail simply so the audience will never have a skewed vision of the book??<P>Also, when I said that LoTR is fiction and not something to get so incredibly emotional about, I'm afriad I didn't make myself all that clear.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is where I don't agree with you, Rindowen. Great works of literature (as with any form of art) are just the sort of things that we should get emotional about. I too have an emotional attachment to the books, having first read them some 25 years ago. But I don't find that this precludes my enjoyment of the films. Nor do the films impair the emotion that I feel for the books. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I completely agree with you, Man. What I was trying to say was, actually, that this work of fiction isn't something, in MY humble opinion, that should generate so much anger and ill-feelings... That there are far more important things in this universe to use our energy toward. <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That said, I think it is important to note that LoTR is fiction and not something to get so incredibly emotional about! It is a brilliant work, certainly! But is it worth being disrespectful to others?! I choose to think not.[QUOTE]<P>If you want to get angry, get angry.. by all means! I'm not telling ANYONE what to do or feel... But I'm trying to get folks to consider another option. Criticism is WONDERFUL! But it can be done respectfully and helpfully.<P><BR>[QUOTE] lindil is right. Too many times have I been told to stop complaining about something (usually something in the movies), and especially when it's in a thread where half or the whole is based on criticisms and complaints. And then sometimes I got so fed up, I told or asked them to leave the thread. They actually should have left if they were going to complain about us complaining about the movie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Willie, if you read through all the thread, you will notice that I never once said, "I think you should stop complaining!" What I was trying to do, obviously unsuccessfuly, was to say that there are GOOD and BAD ways of criticizing.. AND that there is a difference between critiquing certain aspects of the film and making blanket statements about how PJ is a sell-out, etc.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And I just remembered another thing. This thread is a discussion about why you do NOT like Arwen in the movies, so none of us want to hear why you do like her in the movies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know this point has already been made (Thanks, Diamond18!), so I'll let it go. But I just want to also point out that Willie is trying to speak for everyone here, and THAT is not allowed either! (BTW, Lindil, if you would like to forward me all of the "RULES" for these discussion threads, I'll be happy to look them over and either comply or get out of town! Just know that I never broke the rule that you stated... I never said, "Stop complaining," and left it at that! I said, in a sense, "Why are you complaining? Do you think you could do better?") I think Saucepan Man said what I was getting at in just a few short phrases:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And I have no problem with you disliking the films. I am just interested in finding out why you feel so strongly about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I also wanted to know why people felt it was necessary to call PJ a sell-out. Lindil, you seem to have taken this as a personal attack:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I am sorry, how was I disrespectful? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I never said, "You, Lindil, were disrespectful!" I said "people" were being disrespectful... and, forgive me, but I don't want to take the time here to scan through all of the threads again and call EVERY ONE of those who were out. But here is one fine example from Willie:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And PJ, I believe, wanted to get his greedy little hands on some of the profits.... ...That's one way I view him as a sell out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In that same entry, Willie said that he could have predicted exactly what Jackson would do, in terms of selling out. THIS is the type of criticism that I was trying to call out in my original post!<P>Then, in response to my saying that people shouldn't be so hard on PJ, Lindil responds with this little ditty:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As I said before I don't hate the movies, but it is sad that he succombed to the old saying about editors:<P>They are like dogs... because they don't like the smell of anything unless it has their pi$$ on it.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>I simply cannot see why someone has to use such harsh language toward a person they don't even KNOW!!<P>NOW are we all on the same page?<P>Here is my main issue now... How can you, Lindil, tell me that I have no right to tell people to stop complaining (even when I never said or even implied anything of the sort) and then tell me what phrases I can and cannot use?!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I realize you are new here, so this may perhaps be new , if you have not been lurking for a while. So I do not wish to be a ton of bricks coming down on you. But please do not resort to the 'make your own movie line' anymore. It is a very worn-out and authoritatively proscribed reaction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for analyzing me and my reaction.. But challenging someone to make a better movie is something I MAY do here! As Saucepan Man pointed out, I was merely suggesting that PJ did a great job, and saying that he "sold-out" and bastardized the book.. well, is just isn't acceptable to me. Those who choose to put a man down for his interpretation and his art are, perhaps, the ones who should go elsewhere... <P><BR>Willie also said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Rindowen, maybe the books dont mean as much to you as they do to me, but try to understand where we're coming from. Take the BarrowDowns for example. After a while, this place will almost feel like home to you. I love the atmosphere at this site. I've only been here for about 3 months, yet it feels like I've been here for ages. When this place becomes that close to you, you'll see what I mean. If you got in an argument over this site, and you were defending this site, how would you feel if someone told you not to get so emotional over it? You'd probably feel shocked, angry, insulted, and many more feelings, but most of all, you wouldn't like it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, yes, I DO get emotional about books. But do I "name call" those who do not make the movie about the book EXACTLY as the book was written? NO! I may say that I would have liked to have seen something done differently and point those things out... but I wouldn't put a PERSON down for what they did. Your analogy was fine, although perhaps a bit misguided! Yes, I will defend something I feel is worth defending (i.e. Barrow Downs or a book or a religion), but I will NOT INSULT the person who I am challenging.<P>Criticizing vs. Insulting... It's actually THAT simple! There is a difference and THIS is the only thing that I was trying to point out! It isn't against the rules! But is SHOULD be against the rules to JUDGE a person, whether or NOT they happen to be directly involved in this thread!<P>*******************************<P>And I am still sticking to my original post, in that I appreciate what PJ was trying to do with the Arwen roll.