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Salocin · 01-27-2003, 03:55 PM

Sorry Garen LiLorian, but I do not think that solves the determinism vs. free will debate, though it sure looks like it to us fee willers (where is Bill Ferney!?). The determinist would have us believe that Eru meant for everything that was evil in ME to happen, either to make it more exciting for the good heroes or to make peace "taste" better or because he had to in order for "good" to be defind (see here ) and would still judge and punish the evil beings (even though it would be his fault not theirs).

I don't have time to answer this all today, but I'll start.

1.Borromir
Borromir was enticed by the ring. He thought he knew what to do with the ring better than Gandalf, Elrond, and all the wise. It was his pride and his self-centeredness(self used in a broad way to refere to his people). Of cource there was also the influence and enticement of the ring. Anyways he turned away from the will of Eru which is the definition evil. Sure he did what he thought was right but isn't that what Melkor did? He thought he knew better than Eru. So, in summery, he fell, attacked Frodo failed, repented, protects Merry and Pipin, and dies. It is the repented more than anything else that redeems him. He realizes the guile of the ring, that it would control him, not the otherway around, and realizes that the "pro-destroy ringers" were right. His repentence can be seen by his deffence of the hobbits. He now realizes the fate of the little band of 9(well by then 8) walkers was way more important for the world that his precious Gondor. I find it quite evident from Aragorns words to the dieing Boromir and at Boromir's "funeral" that it was his repentance manifested through this deed that redeemed him and that he had done something wrong and needed redemption. The idea of Atonment is a strange one. How can anyone possibly pay or make up for one's sins? First of all they are inumerable and secondly, can we return the world to the state at which it was before our sinful deeds? Short of a time machine I think we can all agree it is impossible. God/Eru knows this and does not ask for us to pay for our sins but mearly to repent of them. If Melkor repented he would immediately be accepted back and would not have to undo all his evil, that would be imposible even for him.

I'll add to this later, either by editing or with more posts.

[ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: Salocin ]

01-27-2003, 03:55 PM	#16
Salocin Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Zion Posts: 106	Sorry Garen LiLorian, but I do not think that solves the determinism vs. free will debate, though it sure looks like it to us fee willers (where is Bill Ferney!?). The determinist would have us believe that Eru meant for everything that was evil in ME to happen, either to make it more exciting for the good heroes or to make peace "taste" better or because he had to in order for "good" to be defind (see here ) and would still judge and punish the evil beings (even though it would be his fault not theirs). I don't have time to answer this all today, but I'll start. 1.Borromir Borromir was enticed by the ring. He thought he knew what to do with the ring better than Gandalf, Elrond, and all the wise. It was his pride and his self-centeredness(self used in a broad way to refere to his people). Of cource there was also the influence and enticement of the ring. Anyways he turned away from the will of Eru which is the definition evil. Sure he did what he thought was right but isn't that what Melkor did? He thought he knew better than Eru. So, in summery, he fell, attacked Frodo failed, repented, protects Merry and Pipin, and dies. It is the repented more than anything else that redeems him. He realizes the guile of the ring, that it would control him, not the otherway around, and realizes that the "pro-destroy ringers" were right. His repentence can be seen by his deffence of the hobbits. He now realizes the fate of the little band of 9(well by then 8) walkers was way more important for the world that his precious Gondor. I find it quite evident from Aragorns words to the dieing Boromir and at Boromir's "funeral" that it was his repentance manifested through this deed that redeemed him and that he had done something wrong and needed redemption. The idea of Atonment is a strange one. How can anyone possibly pay or make up for one's sins? First of all they are inumerable and secondly, can we return the world to the state at which it was before our sinful deeds? Short of a time machine I think we can all agree it is impossible. God/Eru knows this and does not ask for us to pay for our sins but mearly to repent of them. If Melkor repented he would immediately be accepted back and would not have to undo all his evil, that would be imposible even for him. I'll add to this later, either by editing or with more posts. [ January 27, 2003: Message edited by: Salocin ] __________________ Christ is Risen!