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Old 07-23-2003, 01:29 AM   #16
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Quite right, in the world of Tolkien things can rarely be actually ruled out. Possibilities can often be dismissed as unlikely, but usually not squashed completely.

Hmmm... but you know, I think we can probably squash this one. Illuvatar, you know, dwells beyond the Cirlces of the World and outside Ea; it is to him that the Valar called upon when Ar-Pharazon threatened Valinor; and it is he who communes with Manwe upon Taniquetil and with the Valar. It is, apparently (not conclusively known) to Illuvatar that the fëar of Men go after death. A 'restrained' Tom, a little man dwelling in the forest of Eriador, is unlikely to be the Illuvatar of Ea.

Furthermore, there is direct evidence that Eru does in fact live outside the world found in the Ainulindalë;
Quote:
'Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Illuvatar beyond the confines of the world...'
So there's the hard evidence. And Eru did not come to Arda later, because if so he would not have been the 'First'.
Unless you interpret this as meaning 'first of all time' and not just in Arda, there's a quote for that too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]...
Quote:
...at the last he would fall, Last as he was First; and then there would be darkness.
Aside from the fact that Sauron could not have defeated Illuvatar anyway -- which is another piece of useful conclusive evidence this quote gives -- Illuvitar could not be Last of All Time if he was only last in Arda as this implies. Following this implication, the title of First is presumably also only in Arda.

Osse, yes, I did read at least the first half of that essay. To be honest it isn't all that good -- rather too long for what it is trying to say, and definitely on the vague side anyway. More of a general speculation on Bombadil rather than anything definitive, although I will say that the including of the actual quotes of Tolkien himself are most interesting. Tolkien's wish to leave Tom an enigma is worth knowing, and the essay does look at that. Mmmmm... so worth posting, of course. The Bombadil debate spans many threads, there is room enough for numerous essays [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Osse, if you please, the essay that you wrote on the possibility of Aulë would be most welcome here, if only to bring some more new life into the debate. Hopefully it's somewhat shorter though, as since the subject is one that does not really have much chance, a big long compilation on it would be, er, somewhat innapropiate. =/

Actually, the 'earth spirit' thing seems to be along the right lines. The spirit of the Music is what I believe him to be.
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