[Man-of-the-Wold]

First a question: Dorthonion in Beleriand had some potentially Avarian elves? The Dorwinions from The Hobbit are I think best identified as Men, who like the Men of Dale were remnants of the Northmen-Rhovanions, who had once dwelt in the areas north and south of the entire course of the River Running early in the Third Age, but had in previous ages resided mostly farther to the North, before the spreading of dragons and orks in those regions, and were related to the Edain of Beleriand.

Also, among questions of Avari/east-elves, even JRRT seems to have semi-intentionally blurred the line in relation to the Teleri-Nandor (initially Noldor-Danian) off-shoot, which split off before crossing the Misty Mountains. Remember also that there were other offshoots and lingerers (almost exclusively Teleri) between the first and second sunderings.

Consistently, I would argue that the term "East-elves" and Eldar are not mutually exclusively. In fact, the Nandor, and later the Silvan Elves in large part, were to some degree both. But they were not true Eldar, nor true Avari.

The true Avari were probably either of all three kindreds or of none of the three kindreds, and at most, only some of their numbers had gone just a little way on the Great March before turning back completely and returning to Cuivenien. But later they did spread out, and some probably wondered westward and joined up with others (almost exclusively Teleri), who had not turned aside until having passed eastward of regions that became the Sea of Rhun and the lands around it.

Remember we're talking here about ages and ages of time, and not all elves are going to stay in once place in all that time.

The groups led by Lenwe south along the eastern side the Misty Mountains eventually spread (as well) into southern Eriador and probably into what became Gondor through at least the early Second Age. Recall that Shelob had once had Elven victims.

These were not safe areas, however. Morgoth and his creatures terrorized areas east of the Ered Luin, hence the removal of many if not most of these Elves to Ossiriand under Denethor's leadership. Later in the Second Age, these Nandorin elves of Eriador and the lower Anduin would have fallen victim to Sauron's hegemony as it issued out of Mordor.

Of those Nandor and later westward wonders who survived, but had not become Green-Elves of Beleriand, most ended up in the Upper Vales of Anduin, which Sauron tended to bypass. Here they acquired help from Grey and Green-Elves out of Beleriand, as well as Galadriel, and later some Noldorin refugees from Eregion. Quite probably, Amroth and his father were direct decendents of Lenwe.

Through the Second Age and Third Age these "Silvan Elves" tended to concentrate more and more in Lothlorien and ultimately in the Northeast sector of Greenwood the Great, especially when it became Mirkwood under the Necromancer's influence. The rise of Dol Guldor thus contributed to the decline of intercourse between these two remnant, but still -- throughout the Third Age -- thriving communities

Who were they then by this point? Still in large part "Eldarin" Nandor, to be sure, as would be necessary for explaining why Amroth, Nimrodel and others would have been drawn and allowed to pass over the Sea. Like Legolas, who might have been at least half-Nandor, these East-Eldar seem to have gone always through Gondor, where their ancestors may have also once wandered, whereas the Grey Havens seem mostly reserved for the more purely Beleriandic Eldar.

I would generally think that these Silvan Elves were not so much Nandorin in any pure or direct sense, however. Likely, they were augmented with other (Telerian) lingerers from the Great March east of Anduin, and so forth who had wondered westward, including perhaps a fair number of true Avari. They were also augmented with eastward-moving Laiquendi and Sindar, who desired to return to simpler ways and were entirely assimilated as part of Silvan society.

Arguably, this best describes the Wood-Elves (and raft-elves) of Thranduil's realm by the late Third-Age, which probably had significant representation from Beleriandic Elves or their decendents, who were perhaps indistinquishable from the others, but included no High-Elves. At the same time the great majority were probably more or less equally represented among those of Nandorin-blood and those of more eastern extraction. The language spoken there seems disputed. It may have been a surviving "Silvan" form of the orignal Elvish, but I'd posit that they mostly used the Common Speech, especially as they were not too terribly isolated from other peoples.

The Galathrim used a Sindarin dialect, and it seems likely that a great many of their numbers were Beleriandic. Perhaps more distinct from the main society, there might have still also been a small number of High-Elves there, to have at least given Galadriel some company. The majority seems to have been of Nandorin origin. Those of more eastern extraction represented a smaller portion than they would have in Thranduil's realm, but possibly were still quite common.

So, in summary, I see gradation and some non-certitude, which may not have been unacceptable to JRRT, in this situation.

These amalgamated realms of elves in Wilderland were something of an exception to the rule, in that by the time of the War of the Ring, they were not really fading but rather quite vibrant. Consequently, it was most appropriate that Legolas, rather than a Noldorin lord, was a member of the Fellowship. He was at least partially of Sindarin descent, but he was also of a Third-Age generation from Elfin lands that were still significant in the world at that time.

[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]