[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, thanks. Boy, sorry if saying the wrong things.

Nevertheless, I think the texts seem to support plenty of connection between the Men of Carn Dum (based on what Sam, Merry or Pippin recalls) and the Barrow-wights. Who they had been exactly and so forth is all speculation. I was merely offering one plausible scenario, which I don't see as refuted by the texts.

In comparing the Wights to the Nazgul, I was operating at a literary level not a literal one. They could have been willingly corrupted men in ways similar to the Nazgul, who desired not to die. Still, there could be qualitative, as well as quantitative differences between Nazguls and Wights.

In a sense I see the Nazgul as not really having bodies any longer in the material world of light, and their human spirits had been transformed into something alien and altogether evil: no longer going where the spirits of (at least saintly) men go, when finally offed. Whether this (non)bodily aspect worked exactly the same for the Wights or not, is beside the point. Again, I'm dealing with metaphorical similarities, not a set of definitions for various ghouls.

Also, I was unaware that Wights were necessarily human bodies inhabited or "possessed" by some other spirits. Is there a clear indication of that somewhere? Perhaps, that's one definition of "wight," but I thought it is was just a generic type of ghost, and by dictionary is not handy.

I'm not saying the possession point is out of the question. But what Frodo sees is not necessarily an undead body, but could be something (disembodied arm) visible only in the strange light of the Barrow, but still more of a Nazgul-like (but in many ways different) spirit, operating out the Unseen world. Again, I only know that some of the "barrows" are inhabited by Wights, not that the Wights are corpses inhabited by '?'.

As for Orc and Elf spirits, and the penchant to do good and evil, I still hold to the literary perspective of what I see the various races representing among real human traits and eternal ideals.

The basic life-force of the Orcs was derived from tortured Elves, because Morgoth could not create totally new life, but Orcs were in no way Elves, in any way, shape or form, nor subject to redemption, but evil demons, consistent with the origins of the word.

Good and Evil as epitomized between those two races (Elves and Orcs), with other less cardinal tendencies shown through Dwarves, Hobbits, Ents, Dunedain, and other men, is not simply a matter of appearance, personality, political organization or even behavior in all cases, but rather it is a question of what was or could be in the hearts of those various peoples.

The same thinking about literary device and philosophical points might apply to how the members of each race are supposed to be governed and (in an at least relative way) bound to the fate, destiny or natural order of Arda, as well as to what extent and in what way dooms, curses, consequences, and so forth might ensue when those members deviate or try to deviate from that order, or from the tenets of just action.

It is only through language that Tolkien, I feel, provides a consistent indication of each race's deepest and truest tendencies. And the Orc-speech or sentiments may not sound too bad to us in our uncouth societies, but for Tolkien, he might have been presenting abomination.

As for Sauron, Saruman, Balrogs, and yes, in my opinion, the Nazgul and Wights, their disappearing into the "void" is not necessarily the same "void" as where Morgoth goes until the end, but rather it is utter nothingness. Gandalf's and others' statements to them, as well as the images of their various passings are what suggest this to me.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]