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galpsi · 08-11-2000, 02:29 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Of all the people in ME, Saruman was likeliest to hve been able to have answered this question. From a biological standpoint (one which might have been utterly irrlelevant to JRRT's worldview, except that he had Saruman doing breeding experiments and alludes to the results), anything which can breed with anything else belongs to the same species. Bufo terrestris and Bufo quercicus are two quite similar sorts of toads but are members of distinct species.
This has interesting ramifications for the established cosmology of ME. Men and elves can breed. While their offspring are referred to as half-elves, implying that they are hybrids, none of the three can belong to different speciation. That is, the thing which typically prevented their breeding was extrinsic -- not intrinsic -- to their genetic make-up.
The origin of the Urukhai is debated, some arguing that Sauron bred them for improved performance but that they were (nevertheless) strictly orcish. Some argue that they were just brighter-than-average trolls (although clearly their much vaunted imperviousness to daylight would be thereby rendered problematic). Others claim that they were the offspring of experimental cross-breeding of orcs with men.
But this is the rub. It's not really cross-breeding in the biological sense. If, as all the myths tell us, orcs are merely an extrinsically distinct variety of elves then they are biologically members of the same species as elves and men. All breeding among members of this species are possible (and natural).
If you would like to call them races you may, but the term is essentially meaningless in contemporary biological practice. Different members of the same species (regardless of "race&quot

are more genetically similar to one another than they are to members of any other species. While there are phenomena of individual variation within species and while extrinsically discrete populations can arise, the proof of speciation remains always the potential to breed with any other member of the species.
Although nobody has tested the premise, it is not unreasonable to surmise that hobbits and dwarves might be two distinct species, as in the entire history of ME, there is no record of their breeding with any other species. Of course there might be social (extrinsic) reasons why this had not happened or had not been recorded rather than biological (intrinsic) reasons. But if the premise could be tested, we might prove that there existed some three or more "man-like" species in ME. One including hobbits, one including dwarves, and one including men, elves, peredhel, orcs and Urukhai.
This brings the rumination around to the question of trolls. I think that alashar's initial premise -- that trolls are all one species but have been "artificially" distinguished into classifications based simply on environment -- is as sound as our limited knowledge of trolls admits of.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 8/12/00 11:45:30 pm

08-11-2000, 02:29 PM	#2
galpsi The Unquiet Dead Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 971	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls? Of all the people in ME, Saruman was likeliest to hve been able to have answered this question. From a biological standpoint (one which might have been utterly irrlelevant to JRRT's worldview, except that he had Saruman doing breeding experiments and alludes to the results), anything which can breed with anything else belongs to the same species. Bufo terrestris and Bufo quercicus are two quite similar sorts of toads but are members of distinct species. This has interesting ramifications for the established cosmology of ME. Men and elves can breed. While their offspring are referred to as half-elves, implying that they are hybrids, none of the three can belong to different speciation. That is, the thing which typically prevented their breeding was extrinsic -- not intrinsic -- to their genetic make-up. The origin of the Urukhai is debated, some arguing that Sauron bred them for improved performance but that they were (nevertheless) strictly orcish. Some argue that they were just brighter-than-average trolls (although clearly their much vaunted imperviousness to daylight would be thereby rendered problematic). Others claim that they were the offspring of experimental cross-breeding of orcs with men. But this is the rub. It's not really cross-breeding in the biological sense. If, as all the myths tell us, orcs are merely an extrinsically distinct variety of elves then they are biologically members of the same species as elves and men. All breeding among members of this species are possible (and natural). If you would like to call them races you may, but the term is essentially meaningless in contemporary biological practice. Different members of the same species (regardless of "race&quot are more genetically similar to one another than they are to members of any other species. While there are phenomena of individual variation within species and while extrinsically discrete populations can arise, the proof of speciation remains always the potential to breed with any other member of the species. Although nobody has tested the premise, it is not unreasonable to surmise that hobbits and dwarves might be two distinct species, as in the entire history of ME, there is no record of their breeding with any other species. Of course there might be social (extrinsic) reasons why this had not happened or had not been recorded rather than biological (intrinsic) reasons. But if the premise could be tested, we might prove that there existed some three or more "man-like" species in ME. One including hobbits, one including dwarves, and one including men, elves, peredhel, orcs and Urukhai. This brings the rumination around to the question of trolls. I think that alashar's initial premise -- that trolls are all one species but have been "artificially" distinguished into classifications based simply on environment -- is as sound as our limited knowledge of trolls admits of. </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 8/12/00 11:45:30 pm