[The Saucepan Man]

When I read the reference to "the Order" of which the number is unknown, I assumed that the Order being referred to was the Heren Istarion, the Order of Wizards. This seemed to me to be the most logical interpretation of the sentence in terms of the way that it is phrased. On reflection, however, I do take the points made in your post on the other thread, Sharkû, in support of the proposition that it could also refer to the Order of the Ainur.

As you say, the statement "Indeed, of all the Istari, one only remained faithful" does suggest that no Istari remained in Aman, since any that did remain would unquestionably have remained faithful, although "of all the Istari" could be shorthand for "of all the Istari that went to Middle-earth". More compelling, however, is the point that the Order of the Istari appear to have been formed on an ad hoc basis solely as a result of the decision to send emissaries to Middle-earth. If the "raison d'etre" of the Istari was to travel to Middle-earth, it makes little sense for any to be left behind.

That, however, does not preclude the possibility of the number of emissaries sent to Middle-earth being greater than five.

Legolas, I take your point about the phrase "it is said" frequently being used to describe an undeniably true set of circumstances. But, depending on the context, it can also suggest that there is an element of uncertainty about what is being said. For example, I may be wrong on this, but I had always understood that doubt remained over the fate of Tuor, notwithstanding that it was sung that was "numbered among the eldar race". So, I still believe that the reference to it being said that the order of the Istari numbered five does not preclude there in fact having been more than five. So I think that we need to look at what else is said on this subject very carefully.

The point that the Council of the Valar resolved to take only three emissaries, the number later being increased to five, is a good one. But, as I understand it, this passage comes from a fragment of writing, possibly unfinished. Might it be possible that more volunteered, or were selected, at a later stage, before they actually went (or while they were going, since they appear to have arrived in Middle-earth in stages)? Perhaps a subsequent decision was made to support those who had been selected at the first Council with Maia of lesser power, so that those who were first seleced became the "chiefs" of the emissaries.

Which brings me back to my central point, and one which has not yet been explained. If only five Istari travelled to Middle-earth, why is it said that "of those that came to the North of Middle-earth ... the chiefs were five"? This sentence, if rearranged logically, reads "the chiefs of those that came to the North of Middle-earth were five". I still find it very difficult to reach any conclusion from this other than that there were more than five emissaries and that their chiefs were the five who are named.

~Saucepan~