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Old 07-05-2003, 09:07 AM   #9
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
'against the plan of Eru...'
It was all in the plan of Eru; as has been said, 'you can't beat the Music'. Eru's 'plan' encompasses everything, including the rebellion.
Quote:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me.
Again in answer to Aredhil; Men were part of the Third theme, different from the two others. Illuvitar stopped the vision short, just as the Third theme was beginning, so most of it is hidden from the Valar -- but not Illuvitar, of course. Thus, Men are largely a mystery to the Valar.
But as for the birthplace, that was not revealed to the Valar even for the Elves. Orome had to find them. If it was not told where the Elves would awaken, certainly the location of the first Men would not be known. Otherwise, I am sure, the Valar would have set some kind of guard on it, as they would have done with the Elves had they known that Cuivienen would be their home.

The rebellion was not evil. It was largely done in good faith, i.e. with the object of defeating Morgoth. It was hatred for their foe that drove the red-blooded Noldor to their exile. The oath of Feanor was taken by him and his sons only. It is said that some elven lords, for example Galadriel, went desiring to rule lands in the wide world -- they were already rulers of their people in Valinor. Why is it evil for them to wish to be rulers in Middle-Earth? No doubt they relished the chance to be independent of the Valar. Galadriel was not evil.

Finally, on the topic of the Valar's apparent forsaking of Men. I thought along these lines too up till lately. Has anyone ever considered that the Valar, with the Noldor working with the Sindar to set up fair and glorious kingdoms in Middle-Earth, did not feel that a Battle of the Powers-style expedition was needed for the succour of Men? It was not their purpose to bring Men into Valinor, anyway; that could not be done. The Elves did a pretty good job of saving Men from corruption, whether they were the wandering Avari or Nandor East of the Luin or the Noldor and Sindar West of it. After all, that is the topic of this thread [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. It is true that Middle-Earth was mostly abandoned by the Valar during the First Age (mostly, not entirely), but was their interference actually required for the salvation of Men? It wasn't. (Well, it was eventually, but that was only part of the salvation of the whole world that they brought in the War of Wrath.) Perhaps they judged it so.
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