[Legolas]

Oh, come on. That was hardly a realistic option.

Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"? Would you murder your uncle to use his car to drive after a thief? If the thief was the Devil himself? Surely not.

If you want to talk about how lives could be saved, the Noldor crossing the ice certainly wouldn't do that (and they wouldn't get back to Beleriand in time to save it from Morgoth's first invasion).

But if the Noldor died crossing, it would be a loss they brought upon themselves. The Teleri were completely innocent and uninvolved. The Noldor chose to bring this upon their kindred - if any should suffer, it should be them.

Yes, and if my friend gets drunk, I have no obligation to give him a ride, but I do because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own (even if it was his own stupid fault for getting drunk, but in Feanor's case, he was a bit "drunk" by no fault of his own but rather the slaying of his father, the rape of his treasure, and the lies of Morgoth).
So I guess I'm a more decent chap than the Valar.

Completely wrong. You have set up a great example, especially with your statement "because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own": the Valar could clearly see the consequences of what could happen if the Noldor tried to fight Morgoth. You giving your friend a ride would be the same as the Valar not allowing the Noldor to go to Middle-earth. You care for your friend and know that driving drunk is certain danger, that he could die. Even more so did the Valar know the Noldor were marching towards certain death and tried to turn them away. It is only because of the Valar's intervention later that any Noldor survived (whether through Ulmo/Tuor or Manwe's forces in the War of Wrath). The Noldor still proceeding to leave Aman is like your friend attacking another friend, stealing his car keys, and taking his car for a spin, only to burn it and kill himself in a wreck. The Valar are you, or the parents, saying "Don't drink and drive," threatening to take away the keys, etc. Some people just don't listen.

And which one of these actions would have got the Noldor back to ME in time to save Beleriand? Umm...none of them.

Did the Noldor save Beleriand anyway? No. Did they have a chance? No. An emphatic no.

(I personally believe that things happen Eru's way, but that he inspires his creations to bring them about. They do the work.)

Tolkien is explicit about this. Whether or not a being is doing what Eru would prefer, he or she will still prove to be an instrument of him in the ultimate realization that good overcomes evil.

But if we use your theory that Eru makes everything happen the way it's supposed to no matter what, then no one should ever do anything.

That is entirely not what I said. You said Morgoth would've come to control the world if the Noldor had not have sailed to Middle-earth. That is a very far-fetched notion, and would not have happened while the Valar were still present in Arda (and they will be until it's end, so you have nothing to worry about).

Was there any different action that Feanor and the Noldor could've taken to still bring about the exact good they accomplished? Not that I can see.

Of course you can't see. You don't want to. There are endless possibilities, none of which we can forsee or hope to judge. We can only judge what did happen, and what the Noldor did was foolish and caused unnecessary grief.

I'd just like everyone to admit that the way things happened left Feanor with little choice on courses to take to fulfill his mission, and that the Valar maybe should've seen the bad stuff coming and definitely could've made the whole situation a lot easier.

Why did Feanor have to fulfill his mission in such a way? Why could he not listen to the Valar in the first place? Do you not think the Valar could've handled the situation? They obviously could (and did later on). Morgoth's strongholds would not have stood forever, and though we do not know exactly what course the Valar would've taken, it would've been more effective and thought-out than Feanor's. Feanor's courses were few - only two, that I see...patience or haste. He chose haste, the worse of the two. The Valar just would not resolve it as quickly or hastily as Feanor preferred. Taking it upon himself against the counsel of the Valar caused much unnecessary grief. He brought all that ensued upon himself. The Valar saw the bad stuff coming - that's why the Noldor weren't supposed to leave in the first place. The Noldor not only killed some of the Teleri, but were brutally killed themselves. It was only by the might of Thingol and the Sindar (and Men) that the Noldor lasted as long as they did.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]