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bombur · 09-08-2002, 07:29 PM

10 Richter rant warning!!!!

Some analyzers say that in Tolkiens world the women conform to certain stereotypes. To a degree this is true... his male charachters do as well. In my opinion all of Tolkiens charachters are rather romantic and dramatic then sexist or sensual. All of them are paper thin in the places that are not usually explored in romantic fantasy epics, sagas or such.

(Was Boromir married? Did the Istar have affairs? What really was going on between Sam and Rose before the journey... something obviously... was it hard decision for Sam to go? Thin femininity = thin masculinity.)

But how far can you take the precence of stereotypes as a basis for criticism? An analysis I red while ago commented that it was proof of Tolkiens misogynism that Eowyn was clearly part of the Xena-Red Sonia stereotype. The analyzer also felt it was proof of Tolkiens misogynism the there were so few female charachters...

-DUH-

The epic is mainly made of annal-like historical stories of the times of war!

If you have female warriors, you are a sexist, if you do not, you are a sexist. Tolkien manages to be double as sexist by having one.

-DUH-

Sexual liberation IN ATTITUDES AND LITERATURE is thing of the sixties... or nineties. Up to that it was basically almost forbidden to give active and powerfull roles to women in literature. And in the fourties-fifties, Tolkien made up charachters like...

Galadriel: Definately the most powerful mortal of middle earth of the third age, most ambitious one and still one of good guys.

Eowyn: The one exeption to break the historical ”stay at home rule”, rather a Joan d’Arc type. (One of the first female charachters to break this rule in fantasy, I'd say. Eowyn was no "quota female" hero.)

Luthien: A heroine carrying most of the burden and definately having active role. Also interrestingly Luthien was not violent charachter and still managed to be a true hero. Modern fiction seems almost incapable of producing such charachters male or female.

Melian: Female charachter having undisputable, heawy duty power.

Yawanna, Varda, Nienna, etc: Female gods exist in every legend, Tolkien however is exeptional in not making any of them fall in the categories of *****es (Hera, Friga, Isis), evils (Hecate, Hel) or sexobjects (Freya, Afrodite,Bast, Astarte).

Lobelia, Gollums grandmother: matriarchtypes.

Haleth: Quite another type of warrior/matriarch of the Boaedica variety.

Ruling Queens in Numenor (4): are about as frequent in Tolkiens history as they are in the history of England.

Tolkien did give different roles to men and women. There are only few female warriors who are driven by extraordinairy motivations and even fewer female ”adventurers.” Tolkien did give the women in his stories both personality and power however. I’d rather see him as pioneer. This is especially true if you compare his female charachters to those of contemporary authors like Howard, who only knew how to portray women as sex-objects, chainmail-bimboes or evil sorceresses.

Tolkien employed practically all of historical and epical archetypes available to him for creation of believable active and powerful women and invented two new archetypes (Galadriel and Luthien). Curiously neither has been much used in the literature since. Perhaps it is easier to satisfy the gender quota by adding a couple of paper thin Xena-Red Sonia-Eowyn type charachters or evil sorceresses and forget all about it.

Seriously speaking... I think LOTR is still today a rather examplary in a positive way, of fantasy that is epic but still gives women a role. I just wish some more modern authors would dare to build on that foundation.

Janne Harju

(BTW: to clarify things, I am a man, -Grunt-. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )

09-08-2002, 07:29 PM	#72
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	10 Richter rant warning!!!! Some analyzers say that in Tolkiens world the women conform to certain stereotypes. To a degree this is true... his male charachters do as well. In my opinion all of Tolkiens charachters are rather romantic and dramatic then sexist or sensual. All of them are paper thin in the places that are not usually explored in romantic fantasy epics, sagas or such. (Was Boromir married? Did the Istar have affairs? What really was going on between Sam and Rose before the journey... something obviously... was it hard decision for Sam to go? Thin femininity = thin masculinity.) But how far can you take the precence of stereotypes as a basis for criticism? An analysis I red while ago commented that it was proof of Tolkiens misogynism that Eowyn was clearly part of the Xena-Red Sonia stereotype. The analyzer also felt it was proof of Tolkiens misogynism the there were so few female charachters... -DUH- The epic is mainly made of annal-like historical stories of the times of war! If you have female warriors, you are a sexist, if you do not, you are a sexist. Tolkien manages to be double as sexist by having one. -DUH- Sexual liberation IN ATTITUDES AND LITERATURE is thing of the sixties... or nineties. Up to that it was basically almost forbidden to give active and powerfull roles to women in literature. And in the fourties-fifties, Tolkien made up charachters like... Galadriel: Definately the most powerful mortal of middle earth of the third age, most ambitious one and still one of good guys. Eowyn: The one exeption to break the historical ”stay at home rule”, rather a Joan d’Arc type. (One of the first female charachters to break this rule in fantasy, I'd say. Eowyn was no "quota female" hero.) Luthien: A heroine carrying most of the burden and definately having active role. Also interrestingly Luthien was not violent charachter and still managed to be a true hero. Modern fiction seems almost incapable of producing such charachters male or female. Melian: Female charachter having undisputable, heawy duty power. Yawanna, Varda, Nienna, etc: Female gods exist in every legend, Tolkien however is exeptional in not making any of them fall in the categories of *****es (Hera, Friga, Isis), evils (Hecate, Hel) or sexobjects (Freya, Afrodite,Bast, Astarte). Lobelia, Gollums grandmother: matriarchtypes. Haleth: Quite another type of warrior/matriarch of the Boaedica variety. Ruling Queens in Numenor (4): are about as frequent in Tolkiens history as they are in the history of England. Tolkien did give different roles to men and women. There are only few female warriors who are driven by extraordinairy motivations and even fewer female ”adventurers.” Tolkien did give the women in his stories both personality and power however. I’d rather see him as pioneer. This is especially true if you compare his female charachters to those of contemporary authors like Howard, who only knew how to portray women as sex-objects, chainmail-bimboes or evil sorceresses. Tolkien employed practically all of historical and epical archetypes available to him for creation of believable active and powerful women and invented two new archetypes (Galadriel and Luthien). Curiously neither has been much used in the literature since. Perhaps it is easier to satisfy the gender quota by adding a couple of paper thin Xena-Red Sonia-Eowyn type charachters or evil sorceresses and forget all about it. Seriously speaking... I think LOTR is still today a rather examplary in a positive way, of fantasy that is epic but still gives women a role. I just wish some more modern authors would dare to build on that foundation. Janne Harju (BTW: to clarify things, I am a man, -Grunt-. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )