[obloquy]

[in response to Thingol...]What makes me hesitant about this is the lack of textual evidence.

We're in agreement here, for the most part.

Would it be possible for corrupt Maiar spirits to be just hanging around waiting for a Dragon of sufficient physical might to be spawned so they could inhabit the body?

This is what I was referring to when I said I found it telling that Tolkien left this matter unexplained. Not that Tolkien rarely left mysteries, but that such a significantly different and unique origin be unaddressed. There is no precedent for this theory, as Morgoth is not said to have created bodies for other spirits and then incarnated them into these forms. This point of incarnation happens to be very significant because it appears to be involuntary and undesirable. It seems to always have been a side-effect of the Maia's extensive interaction with the physical plane, with the possible exception of the Istari--of whom we know rather little. Do you see what I'm trying to say? This intentional marriage of a soul to a pre-made body is an entirely unattested concept, unless I'm quite mistaken. (I believe we must consider the reincarnation of Elves a different matter since Elves are incarnate in nature, whereas Maiar are naturally incorporeal.) Again, that's not to say it's impossible. There is just too much we don't know about the metaphysics of Tolkien's cosmos. And this applies equally to the apparent incarnation of Balrogs: we don't know how they became that way.

Tsk, tsk, where does it say that?

It's a fairly reasonable and logical assumption. You're playing games with me now.

Dragons were also capable of reason and vocalization. And Goldberry's origins are most definitely unattested.

And I'm not necessarily claiming Dragons had no fea.

I had actually not been looking at the second part in quite the same way. I was looking at it from the point of view of that if something is not mixed then it is the same substance as it's...uh parent (for lack of a better word; although I guess that was what it was).

But I believe my reasoning stands. All offspring of Maiar must be incarnate, and thus cannot be called Maiar themselves. Whether the spirit within is undiluted or not, Maiar are in origin ealar, not incarnates.

I think that we may finally have found something to reach a concensus on!

I suppose I have been taking this point for granted when mentioning the 'permanent' deaths of incarnate Maiar.

I think if I type 'incarnate' one more time I'll probably eat my hand off.

To clarify, my standpoint on the issue is "hell if I know."