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Old 05-21-2002, 04:49 PM   #119
Thingol
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 259
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Sting

In Morgoth's Ring there is an in depth discussion of the nature and subsequent dissipation of Melkor’s power. There are also quite a few threads on the boards devoted to the topic of Melkor’s power, just search Melkor or Morgoth. Kuruharan is correct, Melkor became chained to the tall, dark lord persona after his confrontation with Ungoliant. Melkor becomes much less powerful after he incarnates himself. This discussion is actually very relevant to the debate on the nature of the power of dragons and Balrogs. It goes to the heart of the effects of incarnating oneself into a single hröa. (body)
Quote:
“Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order. "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.”
Again in Morgoth's Ring "Myths Transformed", VIII, Orcs, JRRT discusses spirits who have becomes permanently incarnate as Orcs, until death of their body.
Quote:
“But again ** would Eru provide fëar for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.”
Now I am aware that the Balrogs became trapped in a single hroa, just as the dragons were. However, from the description of the Balrog of Moria, and the fact that Tolkien states that “Most binding is begetting or conceiving” I believe that the dragons were much closer to the physical world than the Balrogs were. The original dragons were probably inhabited by Maia, but it is highly unlikely that all of their brood were as well. Even if some of the original dragons would have been a match for a Balrog (which I do not agree with) I doubt that your run of the mill dragon could put up much of a fight against a Balrog. And don't give me one of those: this comes from an earlier period and Tolkien changed his mind lines, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] the quotes come from Myth's Transformed in Morgoth's Ring and are some of Tolkien's later writings.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
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Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.
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