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mark12_30 · 05-03-2002, 01:32 PM

Hi Piosenniel,

I think the difference between mortal (or, say, Child of Iluvatar) and Valar is really key. You wrote:

Boromir, as a mortal, it would seem to me, would necessarily have his downfall and epiphany in a much shorter span of time than would Melkor, an immortal being. & Melkor, or so it would seem to me, could never move completely beyond the design of Iluvator, because he is ultimately an instrument of the design and not the designer.

I see the Valar as those who's job it is to bless the Children of Iluvatar.

The sense that I get about this is that not just Mortals, but The Children of Iluvatar (elves & men, & I wonder if this includes Hobbits, Tolkien said that Hobbits and Men were very closely related) are faced with choosing good and evil, and have their respective lifetimes to choose in. In choosing good, they are redeemable. Melkor I think has already made his choice, and is wreaking havoc. I think Iluvatar's declaration to Melkor is that Melkor's most evil efforts can't thwart Iluvatar's determination to do good to (and for) His children. In essence, what I see Iluvatar saying is, "Try as hard as you can to harm my children, you will be foiled in the end, because the good that I bring about will far surpass the evil that you intend." However, that doesn't mean that Iluvatar will wink at Melkor's evil, or pardon it. Overcome it, yes. Pardon it, I tend to think not.

In terms of being "part of the design of Iluvatar", yes, every living being (and also everything else is) but that doesn't absolve any living being of responsibility for their free will. To me, part of the mystery of creation is that somehow Iluvatar created beings that weren't robots, but were able to choose good or evil. Boromir, in the end, chooses good.

Somehow I think there's more grace offered to the children, who are less powerful, know less, can do less, but must choose. The Valar? They know, they are powerful, they were with Iluvatar. In other words, Melkor's choice of evil is more heinous because he had seen and worked with Iluvatar in close contact and knew he was rejecting Iluvatar in choosing evil over good. To me it's a lot harder to argue for redeemption under those circumstances. Maybe that's why the Valar are referred to sometimes as "angelic beings." There's a distinction, and I think a big one, between them and "The Children of Iluvatar." I think the Children get more mercy, because they are "children".

Piosenniel, this is a great thread. Keep it up.

--mark12_30

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

05-03-2002, 01:32 PM	#11
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Hi Piosenniel, I think the difference between mortal (or, say, Child of Iluvatar) and Valar is really key. You wrote: Boromir, as a mortal, it would seem to me, would necessarily have his downfall and epiphany in a much shorter span of time than would Melkor, an immortal being. & Melkor, or so it would seem to me, could never move completely beyond the design of Iluvator, because he is ultimately an instrument of the design and not the designer. I see the Valar as those who's job it is to bless the Children of Iluvatar. The sense that I get about this is that not just Mortals, but The Children of Iluvatar (elves & men, & I wonder if this includes Hobbits, Tolkien said that Hobbits and Men were very closely related) are faced with choosing good and evil, and have their respective lifetimes to choose in. In choosing good, they are redeemable. Melkor I think has already made his choice, and is wreaking havoc. I think Iluvatar's declaration to Melkor is that Melkor's most evil efforts can't thwart Iluvatar's determination to do good to (and for) His children. In essence, what I see Iluvatar saying is, "Try as hard as you can to harm my children, you will be foiled in the end, because the good that I bring about will far surpass the evil that you intend." However, that doesn't mean that Iluvatar will wink at Melkor's evil, or pardon it. Overcome it, yes. Pardon it, I tend to think not. In terms of being "part of the design of Iluvatar", yes, every living being (and also everything else is) but that doesn't absolve any living being of responsibility for their free will. To me, part of the mystery of creation is that somehow Iluvatar created beings that weren't robots, but were able to choose good or evil. Boromir, in the end, chooses good. Somehow I think there's more grace offered to the children, who are less powerful, know less, can do less, but must choose. The Valar? They know, they are powerful, they were with Iluvatar. In other words, Melkor's choice of evil is more heinous because he had seen and worked with Iluvatar in close contact and knew he was rejecting Iluvatar in choosing evil over good. To me it's a lot harder to argue for redeemption under those circumstances. Maybe that's why the Valar are referred to sometimes as "angelic beings." There's a distinction, and I think a big one, between them and "The Children of Iluvatar." I think the Children get more mercy, because they are "children". Piosenniel, this is a great thread. Keep it up. --mark12_30 [ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.