[Dain]

Well, "sorcery" seems to indicate dark magic in Tolkien, so I'm not sure we'd call Beorn a sorceror. If his only power is skin-changeing (no, no, not a furrier, Bilbo!) then he's just something strange--does Tolkien talk about Beornings much outside The Hobbit?

As for the Mouth, he was a Numenorean, right? So he may have learned from Sauron from the beginning, or from the people Sauron influenced/tought while he was there causing their downfall. I think sorcery is a dark art that you can study and learn, if you have access to teachers or texts, which the Mouth probably had. I also think it is perhaps easier for men to learn this evil sorcery-magic than other types of magic.

I think that there is a difference between sorcery and real, good magic like the elves posses, and the dwarves to some extent, and is manifested mostly in their crafts. I still think its more a matter of using and controlling your innate powers and connexions to the magic of Arda as a whole, at least for this type of art/craft magic. It's possible to study, but it's not as simple as learning a recipe or a spell-phrase. And I'm not sure you can be a sorceror without becoming evil. "Good" magic is subtle--as the elven rings certainly are.

For example, I think Aragorn has magic, but he never studies or says any spells, it's just in him, and he uses it without thinking (perhaps that's what you, Iarwain, meant by "power" in the first place"?). Gandalf has a lot of spells and flashy magic, but when he really shows his power is not when he's blasting orcs with pinecones, but when he's staring down the Witch-King or the Balrog, and he just has this aura of might, rather than any particular spells. I think that's where the real magic in Tolkien is.

It is very confusing, and it's late. Good luck with the discussion, I won't be back for a while... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]