[HerenIstarion]

Formerly, I was deliberately abstaining form the discussions of the kind. Yet temptation remains, so here we are.

If I were to add some thoughts of my own (the process I have plunged in head first right now, opening words being preliminary in-breathing, as in sumo wrestling), I should say that all the sexist talk is meaningless by definition, and yet, if I were to judge from what is seen from my Eastern distance as mental weather in the West about the subject, quite right. IMO (without H inside, of course, for what is the worth of having humble opinion?), Tolkien knew very well where did he aim when making Eowyn survive and marry Faramir. For, risking myself being marked sexist, I do follow JRRT in stating that men and women are not equal. I don’t mean status, but abilities as are markedly different, don’t you think? Or, a bit of cryptology to my add, if God wanted us to fly, He would have given us wings.

Well, count to ten (it will help you to build up your anger pressure and than fall down on me with more efficiency) and read on before you start typing.

I do not mean equality before law, or voting or working or any other kind of rights But it is as simple as admitting that in some fields I may be ‘better than thou’ as in others far far behind. It may sound ‘undemocratic’, but democracy on such a level is mere fiction

Eowyn errs, for:

1. She replaced her natural values (feminine and as good as any masculine may be) with what is not natural for a woman (in the circumstances given in ME by the end of TA, we are not talking matriarchies here, which would have been equally good things to live in, I suppose (and are ther in ME as well, nobody never rememers Gollum’s Granny)).
2. Dying in battle defending the house when no man is left to do it is more glorious exactly because there is no one to praise it. Even if I cut out the first phrase (about feminine values), her mental state is far from ideal – she is thirsty after good deeds not because those are good in themselves, but because of glory those are supposed to bring about. If it were some man talking so, the same would apply to him.

All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. But I am of the house of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death

Such a thing said certainly invokes sympathy for her, and I use to sob (ok, at least shed a few tears) over reading the whole passage but if you follow her reasoning, you’ll find that she fears:

To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire

I may fear same thing as well, as any human being may, without marking gender differences. I find that most stress here falls on ‘doing greater deeds’ and ‘dying in honour’ than striving for equal rights . She distinguishes herself from other women on the basis of being of the house of Eorl, not on the basis ‘we woman have equal right to fight in the war’. Why naming servant-woman, as a counterweight and not simply servant, than?

And, risking another gale of rotten potatoes in my direction, her survival in a way is just another sample of Tolkien’s Christianity. To remind you of the concept – nothing can live which does not die first, and mortify its un-heavenly parts. In a sense, Eowyn indeed dies on the battlefield, and is reborn in the Houses of Healing to be another person whatsoever. To have her dead on the field would be heathen, and to have her in love with Faramir is far more courageous, for Aragorn at this point of the story is approaching ‘representation of God upon Earth' status. And I would venture further on to say that there are no coincidences with Tolkien, so her rebirth takes place at the precise moment of Eagle coming to Minas Tirith:

Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.

Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard,
for your watch hath not been in vain,
and the Black Gate is broken,
and your King hath passed through,
and he is victorious.

Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed,
and he shall plant it in the high places,
and the City shall be blessed.

Sing all ye people!

which is also full of Biblical reminiscences and, in fact, is religious hymn stating the beginning of the new age and promise of Kingdom to come. Mark words like “your watch hath not been in vain”, and King with capital K, and passage of the Black Gate, and “shall come again” and “all the days of your life”. She is healed.

Eowyn is by far more than she seems, and is a paradigm of all (not only its female part) fallen, yet ‘trying to be good’ humanity, which deems itself following its Lord out of Love, but in fact does it with the other ends in mind, thus having Death, and which is given second chance and help as an act of divine intervention. And ‘incidentally’, Aragorn is the one to pull her out, as well as ‘by coincidence’ a cross-point of hints in the hymn given above. There are no chance meetings in Middle Earth.

As for passionate Frodo, Sam and Gollum, another unnecessary tornado of debate gone amiss. For on a symbolic plane, I daresay, the trio somehow forms itself into one and the same person. Frodo being eternal and Sam and Gollum temporal parts of the personality. If I am allowed to coin an ugly name, I will refer to him as FSG henceforward. So FSG, as well as Eowyn, is part of the fallen humanity (for the Fallen Humanity, refer to Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth), so he is unable to perform his task and get rid of the Ring. And yet, general principle of all Tolkien is:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Selfsame principle comes in at the moment, and when Frodo (eternal part) gives in (rendered as claim and than fight with Gollum, mortal and evil part, as contrasted to Sam, mortal and good part), direct Divine Intervention occurs, and Gollum falls down (or, mortal/evil part of the Personality is mortified). And what with Sam representing mortal/good part of FSG, he is also left behind once Frodo goes West. (By the way, whole passage utterly spoiled in the movie, I daresay, for why does Frodo push Gollum in the way he does there?)

Aragorn and Arwen are also highly symbolic, being union of all Free People blood trends into one (except Dwarves, of course, which are another story). Somewhere in the depths of this board archives there is buried good discourse on the subject, so I won’t start developing it again, what with the time being 4 in the morning here.

So there by definition could not have been passionate and erotic relationships in LoTR.

Yet for those holding Tolkien unable to describe man/woman relationship, Kronos, I should recommend Aldarion and Erendis, as found in Unfinished Tales. There is a good read on it.

Yours truly,
H-I

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:08 PM February 06, 2004: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]