[The Saucepan Man]

I have been greatly enjoying following this discussion and some very interesting points have been made on both sides.

But one point that seems to me to shine out from the arguments of Maedhros and lord of dor-lomin is that the Noldor's rebellion and subsequent exile to ME was, however you may view it subjectively, in fact beneficial from an objective standpoint.

Obloquy argues that the Valar could not have defeated Melkor at the time he made off with the Silmarils, on the basis that he was too strong at that stage and it was not until he had expended his energy trying to subjugate ME that he was sufficiently weakened for them to defeat him. This makes perfect sense to me. It explains why the hosts of Valinor did not up and after him immediately after he had destroyed the Two Trees, killed Finwe and made off with the Silmarils. It also explains why the Valar did not wish the Noldor to do so.

But, had the Noldor not followed Melkor, he would have run riot through ME, destroying the Elvish communities there (would the girdle of Melian have held forever?), and subjugating all Men to his will. By following him to ME, the Noldor were, as lord of dor-lomin has pointed out, able to keep him at bay for some 500 years, prevent Men falling under his thrall and, at the same time, raise their quality as a race.

Now, it might be said that, with Melkor running rampant through ME with no Noldor to hold him in check, the Valar would have moved sooner. But then they would have been taking him on while he was still strong. Even had he been defeated, the damage to ME would, as Madhros has pointed out, been far more terrible and extensive than that caused by the War of Wrath. Obloquy speculates that Melkor might have bored of ME and moved in on Valinor. Again, this would have prompted a conflict when Melkor was at the height of his powers. Possible victory for Melkor and, even if not, extensive damage to Valinor.

And even if the Valar held off from acting until much later, Melkor would not have been weakened by an almost perpetual state of warfare with the Noldor, and so, again, he might have won. Even if not, there would have been considerable loss of life in the resulting battle as well as considerable damage to ME.

So, is it not fair to say that the flight of the Noldor to Beleriand did actually bring about a good result in the end? I am not saying that what they did was good, but that it had a good effect, compared to what was likely to have happened had they remained in Valinor. Quite possibly less loss of life, almost certainly less damage to Arda and the saving from domination by Melkor, and the improvement, of the three great Houses of Men.