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Kalessin · 04-23-2002, 08:23 PM

Gilthalion : you said -

"The Orthodox Jew will find Tolkien far more understandable than the Secular Humanist, who will understand him still better than the Atheist"

I would challenge you strongly on this. It implies that (either) intelligence, emotional depth, empathic ability, imagination and so on are somehow linked to one's personal spiritual beliefs (or simply the tradition one is born into).

I would say by contrast that a thoughtful and imaginative secular humanist would be very likely to appreciate Tolkien more than a unimaginative, parochial and impatient Orthodox Jew.

I do not buy the idea that being a Jew, Christian (or not), or other faith, or atheist, gives any human beings an automatic advantage in terms of literacy, perception and imagination. Neither is it a disadvantage. Even if, for an individual, their faith or spiritual belief is at the core of their existence and experience of the world (or equally their lack of faith, atheism, etc.) ... there are simply no guarantees that their judgement and/or appreciation of art will be 'better'. Their perception will simply be infused with this personal aspect of their consciousness.

On the more general note, I and many others have posted at length in the excellent Trilogy and Bible thread (which I recommend heartily to anyone interested) and I have already probably bored everyone (including myself) to tears on this topic [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . Suffice it to say that I am generally with Mithadan in acknowledging Tolkien's Catholicism (along with other formative influences) as a key context to discussion and analysis of his work, but NOT as a pre-requisite to either fully and deeply appreciating and enjoying it, and NOT as evidence that he was proselytising under the guise of epic narrative.

You will notice in the other threads here that at various points self-declared Christians, of particular shades of belief, have argued that a number of popular fantasy works that include the concept of magic are in fact dangerous incitements to occultism. To my mind this illustrates my first point - namely, that that no-one has a monopoly on imagination and judgement simply by virtue of their faith or non-faith. It seems that because Tolkien was an avowed Catholic his use of pagan archetypes (elves - reinvented or no, tree-spirits, barrow-wights, Bombadil etc.) is somehow different and acceptable. However, I am not asserting that any of those views are typical or representative, nor making any kind of pejorative inference. The point is the variances in individual (and necessarily subjective) perceptions that occur across humanity.

I prefer to take Tolkien's own words at face value. And to be entertained, moved and enriched by the imagination and craft of an excellent writer.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

PS. I have pushed the Trilogy and Bible thread up to the top of The Books section. I cannot face cutting and pasting ... it's late, please forgive me
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]

04-23-2002, 08:23 PM	#6
Kalessin Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Earthsea, or London Posts: 175	Gilthalion : you said - "The Orthodox Jew will find Tolkien far more understandable than the Secular Humanist, who will understand him still better than the Atheist" I would challenge you strongly on this. It implies that (either) intelligence, emotional depth, empathic ability, imagination and so on are somehow linked to one's personal spiritual beliefs (or simply the tradition one is born into). I would say by contrast that a thoughtful and imaginative secular humanist would be very likely to appreciate Tolkien more than a unimaginative, parochial and impatient Orthodox Jew. I do not buy the idea that being a Jew, Christian (or not), or other faith, or atheist, gives any human beings an automatic advantage in terms of literacy, perception and imagination. Neither is it a disadvantage. Even if, for an individual, their faith or spiritual belief is at the core of their existence and experience of the world (or equally their lack of faith, atheism, etc.) ... there are simply no guarantees that their judgement and/or appreciation of art will be 'better'. Their perception will simply be infused with this personal aspect of their consciousness. On the more general note, I and many others have posted at length in the excellent Trilogy and Bible thread (which I recommend heartily to anyone interested) and I have already probably bored everyone (including myself) to tears on this topic [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . Suffice it to say that I am generally with Mithadan in acknowledging Tolkien's Catholicism (along with other formative influences) as a key context to discussion and analysis of his work, but NOT as a pre-requisite to either fully and deeply appreciating and enjoying it, and NOT as evidence that he was proselytising under the guise of epic narrative. You will notice in the other threads here that at various points self-declared Christians, of particular shades of belief, have argued that a number of popular fantasy works that include the concept of magic are in fact dangerous incitements to occultism. To my mind this illustrates my first point - namely, that that no-one has a monopoly on imagination and judgement simply by virtue of their faith or non-faith. It seems that because Tolkien was an avowed Catholic his use of pagan archetypes (elves - reinvented or no, tree-spirits, barrow-wights, Bombadil etc.) is somehow different and acceptable. However, I am not asserting that any of those views are typical or representative, nor making any kind of pejorative inference. The point is the variances in individual (and necessarily subjective) perceptions that occur across humanity. I prefer to take Tolkien's own words at face value. And to be entertained, moved and enriched by the imagination and craft of an excellent writer. Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] PS. I have pushed the Trilogy and Bible thread up to the top of The Books section. I cannot face cutting and pasting ... it's late, please forgive me [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalessin ]