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Estel the Descender · 03-22-2002, 07:04 AM

Dear Pastor Jordan,

I am with thee, Pastor Jordan! There IS objective truth. Should a person say that red is dull green, it does not mean that he/she has a different (a) culture, (b) semantics, (c) viewpoint, or (d) existential interpretation. It just simply means that that person is color-blind and if that person does not believe it to be true, well. . . red is red, green is green.

Dear Arwen Imladris,

It is true that there are similarities between the Silmarillion and the OT, but I don't think that the former was intended as a copy or allegory of the latter, given Tolkien's statement. Of course, there is the influences of both Biblical (which is good) and extra-biblical (also good) sources. Numenor, for instance, is similar to both the tales of Atlantis and Lyonesse, hence the names, 'Atalante' and 'Westernesse'. Also, there is the obvious autobiographical element (Tolkien did call himself Beren and his wife Luthien, although the circumstances of their meeting might have probably been just made up). Tolkien may have used these sources as bases for his work so that there can be an element of believability. It is like a person who uses history as a basis for a historical novel. But unless the author said that he intended his work as an allegory then we should not think that the work as symbolical or allegorical.

I am glad that JRR Tolkien was a friend of CS Lewis or else the Christian world would have been deprived of a most able apologist.
The Chronicles of Narnia was intended by Lewis as a sort of an allegory, but it his "Pilgrim's Regress" that counts as the true allegory, just as the 'Faerie Queene' and the 'Pilgrim's Progress'. In that sense, both the Chronicles and the LotR are actually either (a) parables, or (b) examples. Jesus' parables, although they contain a portrayal of truth, can happen in reality (the Prodigal Son happens all the time nowadays). As for the term 'example', St. Paul uses the history of the Israelites' rebellion in the Sinai desert as an 'example' to show some truth to the new Christians (I Cor 10). In the strictest sense, a parable or example is not an allegory. An allegory uses symbolism a lot, like Plato's 'Allegory of the Cave'. Jesus used allegory when he referred to himself as 'the Gate', or 'the Living Water'. Symbolism is the essence of allegory.

I do not see the Bible or the LotR as allegories. Parables, maybe, or more probably examples. In this they are similar even though they use different symbolisms.

However, if someone begins to appreciate the Bible because of 'The Silmarillion', 'The Hobbit', and/or 'The LotR', I would really think that would be very nice.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Estel the Descender ]

03-22-2002, 07:04 AM	#141
Estel the Descender Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 55	Dear Pastor Jordan, I am with thee, Pastor Jordan! There IS objective truth. Should a person say that red is dull green, it does not mean that he/she has a different (a) culture, (b) semantics, (c) viewpoint, or (d) existential interpretation. It just simply means that that person is color-blind and if that person does not believe it to be true, well. . . red is red, green is green. Dear Arwen Imladris, It is true that there are similarities between the Silmarillion and the OT, but I don't think that the former was intended as a copy or allegory of the latter, given Tolkien's statement. Of course, there is the influences of both Biblical (which is good) and extra-biblical (also good) sources. Numenor, for instance, is similar to both the tales of Atlantis and Lyonesse, hence the names, 'Atalante' and 'Westernesse'. Also, there is the obvious autobiographical element (Tolkien did call himself Beren and his wife Luthien, although the circumstances of their meeting might have probably been just made up). Tolkien may have used these sources as bases for his work so that there can be an element of believability. It is like a person who uses history as a basis for a historical novel. But unless the author said that he intended his work as an allegory then we should not think that the work as symbolical or allegorical. I am glad that JRR Tolkien was a friend of CS Lewis or else the Christian world would have been deprived of a most able apologist. The Chronicles of Narnia was intended by Lewis as a sort of an allegory, but it his "Pilgrim's Regress" that counts as the true allegory, just as the 'Faerie Queene' and the 'Pilgrim's Progress'. In that sense, both the Chronicles and the LotR are actually either (a) parables, or (b) examples. Jesus' parables, although they contain a portrayal of truth, can happen in reality (the Prodigal Son happens all the time nowadays). As for the term 'example', St. Paul uses the history of the Israelites' rebellion in the Sinai desert as an 'example' to show some truth to the new Christians (I Cor 10). In the strictest sense, a parable or example is not an allegory. An allegory uses symbolism a lot, like Plato's 'Allegory of the Cave'. Jesus used allegory when he referred to himself as 'the Gate', or 'the Living Water'. Symbolism is the essence of allegory. I do not see the Bible or the LotR as allegories. Parables, maybe, or more probably examples. In this they are similar even though they use different symbolisms. However, if someone begins to appreciate the Bible because of 'The Silmarillion', 'The Hobbit', and/or 'The LotR', I would really think that would be very nice. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: Estel the Descender ] __________________ Qui desiderat pacem, præparet bellum. E i anîra hîdh, tangado an auth.