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Man-of-the-Wold · 03-09-2003, 02:54 PM

I tend to go with Belin, in that the language in The Hobbit is saved by reference to royal memories noted in LR, in regard to the former Kingdom of Arnor. Remember the Thain is very much equivalent to the Steward of Gondor -- a placeholder until the Return of the King. But as one approaches "The Wild," then this legacy becomes weaker. Even in the old days, that area would have been on the Edge.

The statement, though, is not by the narrator or Bilbo, but by the dwarven companions of Thorin, which may mean only that folks in general in that area would not know Thorin, King of the Longbeards, from a hole in the wall.

But these Dwarves from their modest Blue Mountain realm beyond the Lune probably would have shared the Shire's same perspective on the kinder, more orderly influence in Western Eriador, as derived from the (albeit long-lost) Kings of the Men of Westernesse.

So, I think this is Tolkien's out in editing the The Hobbit, for which he wanted to avoid any major rewriting, except for where the Ring was concerned. To wit, that prequel cries out for either a shortened timeline or some explanation of Thorin & Co.'s impossibly slow progress.

The whole Third Age history had not yet unraveled when The Hobbit was written, as revealed in The History of the Lord of the Rings (HoME VII-IX). The Red Book is very hard to decipher, ya know.

So, at the time, JRRT may have had various specific ideas in mind, apart from some generic living King of Men in Western Eriador.
(1) It may refer to Gil-Galad or some equivalently last Elven-King, whose demise at the "Last Alliance" had not yet developed; (Note: the term Eriador arose from Gil-Galad's nominal dominion over it through much of the Second Age, as Third-Age Arnor never covered all of Eriador)
(2) Decendents of the exiles from the Atlanttee, in the name of Elendil, Valandil, etc., who ruled in what was then Beleriand.
(3) Maybe a former king, but only a few generations apart, as "Trotter"/Aragorn was only a grandson or so of Isilidur at one time,
... and so forth.

03-09-2003, 02:54 PM	#12
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	I tend to go with Belin, in that the language in The Hobbit is saved by reference to royal memories noted in LR, in regard to the former Kingdom of Arnor. Remember the Thain is very much equivalent to the Steward of Gondor -- a placeholder until the Return of the King. But as one approaches "The Wild," then this legacy becomes weaker. Even in the old days, that area would have been on the Edge. The statement, though, is not by the narrator or Bilbo, but by the dwarven companions of Thorin, which may mean only that folks in general in that area would not know Thorin, King of the Longbeards, from a hole in the wall. But these Dwarves from their modest Blue Mountain realm beyond the Lune probably would have shared the Shire's same perspective on the kinder, more orderly influence in Western Eriador, as derived from the (albeit long-lost) Kings of the Men of Westernesse. So, I think this is Tolkien's out in editing the The Hobbit, for which he wanted to avoid any major rewriting, except for where the Ring was concerned. To wit, that prequel cries out for either a shortened timeline or some explanation of Thorin & Co.'s impossibly slow progress. The whole Third Age history had not yet unraveled when The Hobbit was written, as revealed in The History of the Lord of the Rings (HoME VII-IX). The Red Book is very hard to decipher, ya know. So, at the time, JRRT may have had various specific ideas in mind, apart from some generic living King of Men in Western Eriador. (1) It may refer to Gil-Galad or some equivalently last Elven-King, whose demise at the "Last Alliance" had not yet developed; (Note: the term Eriador arose from Gil-Galad's nominal dominion over it through much of the Second Age, as Third-Age Arnor never covered all of Eriador) (2) Decendents of the exiles from the Atlanttee, in the name of Elendil, Valandil, etc., who ruled in what was then Beleriand. (3) Maybe a former king, but only a few generations apart, as "Trotter"/Aragorn was only a grandson or so of Isilidur at one time, ... and so forth. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.