The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - In the Shadow of the Star: Discussion Thread (Part 1)

Child of the 7th Age · 03-14-2003, 08:25 AM

Helen,

I was not trying to bamboozle anyone. I just don't see it the same critical way that you do. In fact, I don't see how it's any different than inventing 5,000 years of hobbit history. There is no way you could keep an entire people hidden for 5,000 years. Surely someone would have noticed them in all that time, the descendents of the guards of Numenor, for example. If I was a Man, and had been put in charge of hobbit prisoners, I certainly would tell everyone I knew about these strange creatures!

Moreover, to be truthful, I once read an interview where Tolkien said it was impossible to have hobbits in an earlier age, because they were totally the product of the Shire. Personally, for me, it is more impossible to imagine that a people could have evolved a culture, physical characteristics, etc. in just 2,000 years, since the year 1050 T.A. is the first hint in Tolkien of hobbits.

Having said this, isn't there an easier way we can get around your objections? I really don't like tampering with the earlier parts of the story. It's like putting fig leaves on statues.

I don't have a problem saying that Frodo and Bilbo came in dream time, instead of real time. This is not uneasonable in that they arrived the same way as the other dream travellers. We have a Vala with us who is in charge of dreams and visions. This type of power inherently implies the ability to cast illusions.

Why can't we simply have an ending post where Lorien does his thing as a Vala and gently places a misty curtain over the minds of the Shirelings so that the whole sequence of events in the story fades away, becoming very distant and vague? Like a pleasant but half-remembered dream. This would only involve those folk living in the Shire. Frankly, the only person who would absolutely need to forget is Sam, since he's writing the later history. With anyone else, it's simply a matter of rumor. But, to be safe, Lorien could deal with the Shire as a hole.

Pio, and Mith, and Bird would not be affected in any way. If you prefer, you could evn have the same veil descend on the minds of the dream travellers....although Cami and Maura would be exempt. I won't budge on that! Plus, I would think that Frodo and Bilbo would have a special status in this regard, since they are returning to the West and points beyond.

Just think of it as the ending of Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. A temporary sweet madness has seized the Shirelings' minds, but it will soon depart.

Helen, could you live with this? It has the advantage of not requiring earlier revisions. Does anyone else have any serious concerns regarding the structure of the story, or the suggested solution I've proposed?

sharon

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

03-14-2003, 08:25 AM	#381
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Helen, I was not trying to bamboozle anyone. I just don't see it the same critical way that you do. In fact, I don't see how it's any different than inventing 5,000 years of hobbit history. There is no way you could keep an entire people hidden for 5,000 years. Surely someone would have noticed them in all that time, the descendents of the guards of Numenor, for example. If I was a Man, and had been put in charge of hobbit prisoners, I certainly would tell everyone I knew about these strange creatures! Moreover, to be truthful, I once read an interview where Tolkien said it was impossible to have hobbits in an earlier age, because they were totally the product of the Shire. Personally, for me, it is more impossible to imagine that a people could have evolved a culture, physical characteristics, etc. in just 2,000 years, since the year 1050 T.A. is the first hint in Tolkien of hobbits. Having said this, isn't there an easier way we can get around your objections? I really don't like tampering with the earlier parts of the story. It's like putting fig leaves on statues. I don't have a problem saying that Frodo and Bilbo came in dream time, instead of real time. This is not uneasonable in that they arrived the same way as the other dream travellers. We have a Vala with us who is in charge of dreams and visions. This type of power inherently implies the ability to cast illusions. Why can't we simply have an ending post where Lorien does his thing as a Vala and gently places a misty curtain over the minds of the Shirelings so that the whole sequence of events in the story fades away, becoming very distant and vague? Like a pleasant but half-remembered dream. This would only involve those folk living in the Shire. Frankly, the only person who would absolutely need to forget is Sam, since he's writing the later history. With anyone else, it's simply a matter of rumor. But, to be safe, Lorien could deal with the Shire as a hole. Pio, and Mith, and Bird would not be affected in any way. If you prefer, you could evn have the same veil descend on the minds of the dream travellers....although Cami and Maura would be exempt. I won't budge on that! Plus, I would think that Frodo and Bilbo would have a special status in this regard, since they are returning to the West and points beyond. Just think of it as the ending of Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream. A temporary sweet madness has seized the Shirelings' minds, but it will soon depart. Helen, could you live with this? It has the advantage of not requiring earlier revisions. Does anyone else have any serious concerns regarding the structure of the story, or the suggested solution I've proposed? sharon [ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.