The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - In the Shadow of the Star: Discussion Thread (Part 1)

Child of the 7th Age · 02-27-2003, 12:48 PM

Regarding hobbit terminology. This is a problem, for which I have no immediate solution. It is actually very puzzling and gets into other issues that would best be dealt with in the books and languages forum.

I am inconsistent myself. I do not generally use 'man' or 'woman', although I have on rare occasions. One or two scenes with Maura and Cami come to mind, plus some references to "women" when Cami is with Pio and Bird. I do use 'boy' and 'girl' quite often in my writing and these are also human terms. To be absolutely true to Tolkien, you'd probably need to avoid these gendered terms.

Pio, you're absolutely right about the gap in age between lad/lass and gaffer/gammer. Cami is not really a lass as she is 50 (as are Sam, Merry, etc.); Frodo would be in his 60s! But, to me, gaffer and gammer carry connotations of both age and class that do not jive with any any of these characters. Even Bilbo is not a gammer, despite his advanced age! Here are some terms Tolkien does use. Note that most of these do not include an indication of gender: "goodman," "goodwife," "muddy-feet" (one of my all-time personal favorites), "Shirelings," "Shirefolk," "elders," "people," "children," "gentlehobbit," "female relative," as well as all the usual terms relating to family.

If you stop and think about it, this same problem applies to Elves and dwarves. I don't think Tolkien uses 'woman' for female dwarves or Elves. There is no word to indicate gender in either of those people.

Interesting enough, the one people that does have gender distinction is a people that actually has no "physical" gender, just "spiritual" gender: Vala, Valie, Valar, Valier. Where do these terms come from? Quenyan or Sindarin? Why should Tolkien have created such terms for the Ainur and not for hobbits? Or perhaps, in Quenyan or Sindarin, there is a term with gender distinctions for Elves, and I just don't know it? And the same in the dwarvish tongue?

My understanding is that Westron and Adunaic did carry gender differences in the languages themselves, but I don't think Quenyan did. (I am no expert and could be wrong.) In Tolkien's Westron, names that end in "a" are masculine and "o" or "e" feminine. Hence, Bilbo is really Bilba. Adunaic, for instance, even has a single word for baby boy--which English doesn't.

Very strange when you think about it. With no terms for adult gender distinctions in English for Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, it tends to de-emphasize the possibility of sexuality among those folk. (Please no one throw rocks at me!) But this is the limitation of the English language, not something that Tolkien did.

In summary, I have no answer for this, but it opens up some other puzzling questions, best dealt with in other forums. Just do what you feel comfortable with!

Cami

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

02-27-2003, 12:48 PM	#179
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Regarding hobbit terminology. This is a problem, for which I have no immediate solution. It is actually very puzzling and gets into other issues that would best be dealt with in the books and languages forum. I am inconsistent myself. I do not generally use 'man' or 'woman', although I have on rare occasions. One or two scenes with Maura and Cami come to mind, plus some references to "women" when Cami is with Pio and Bird. I do use 'boy' and 'girl' quite often in my writing and these are also human terms. To be absolutely true to Tolkien, you'd probably need to avoid these gendered terms. Pio, you're absolutely right about the gap in age between lad/lass and gaffer/gammer. Cami is not really a lass as she is 50 (as are Sam, Merry, etc.); Frodo would be in his 60s! But, to me, gaffer and gammer carry connotations of both age and class that do not jive with any any of these characters. Even Bilbo is not a gammer, despite his advanced age! Here are some terms Tolkien does use. Note that most of these do not include an indication of gender: "goodman," "goodwife," "muddy-feet" (one of my all-time personal favorites), "Shirelings," "Shirefolk," "elders," "people," "children," "gentlehobbit," "female relative," as well as all the usual terms relating to family. If you stop and think about it, this same problem applies to Elves and dwarves. I don't think Tolkien uses 'woman' for female dwarves or Elves. There is no word to indicate gender in either of those people. Interesting enough, the one people that does have gender distinction is a people that actually has no "physical" gender, just "spiritual" gender: Vala, Valie, Valar, Valier. Where do these terms come from? Quenyan or Sindarin? Why should Tolkien have created such terms for the Ainur and not for hobbits? Or perhaps, in Quenyan or Sindarin, there is a term with gender distinctions for Elves, and I just don't know it? And the same in the dwarvish tongue? My understanding is that Westron and Adunaic did carry gender differences in the languages themselves, but I don't think Quenyan did. (I am no expert and could be wrong.) In Tolkien's Westron, names that end in "a" are masculine and "o" or "e" feminine. Hence, Bilbo is really Bilba. Adunaic, for instance, even has a single word for baby boy--which English doesn't. Very strange when you think about it. With no terms for adult gender distinctions in English for Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, it tends to de-emphasize the possibility of sexuality among those folk. (Please no one throw rocks at me!) But this is the limitation of the English language, not something that Tolkien did. In summary, I have no answer for this, but it opens up some other puzzling questions, best dealt with in other forums. Just do what you feel comfortable with! Cami [ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.