The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Frodo's initial delay in leaving the Shire: What does it mean?

mark12_30 · 08-23-2002, 07:19 PM

Maril--

About "Speaking Christianese"-- point taken. It is one of my pet peeves, and there I went. Sorry. I will try. Please feel free to remind me whenever I fail to translate.

Your particular frustration from my post:
"There is the one of the differences between liturgical and evangelical vocabulary.." All that means is, I belong to a looser, less formal group that has less memorised stuff and less tradition (evangelical) while Gandalf belongs to a group rich in tradition and memorised stuff (liturgical). For some reason, liturgical spiritual retreats are really spiritual-- while evangelical "retreats" tend to be just an excuse to get away from it all (IMHO). Worship conferences on the other hand tend to get good and profound. So we had a vocabulary clash, and what Gandalf was intending as a mystical reference came across to me as just... well... boring. However, if I had remember that I was reading a post by a liturgical type of fellow I would have read it differently.

Any better, or worse now? I tried.

About Frodo and Goldberry-- I grant you that Goldberry, Arwen, and Galadriel are all unattainable. (And too tall.) However, that was really my point (bear with me).

Bird mentioned, "Maybe he likes 'em tall." My comeback is, 'Maybe he likes 'em spiritual.' I tend to think that when he met genuinely spiritual females, his reaction was, "Now that's interesting-- she's interesting-- and... also quite out of my reach. Well, there it is."

The first time, he's taken off guard, and embarasses himself. The next two times, he (carefully!) remains silent. But we do read that he was struck by their beauty. And I don't think Tolkien is implying only physical good looks; I think spiritual beauty is a large part of the mix.

I think that he realised that if he had been looking for a wife, she'd have to be as interested in otherwordly things as he was, to remain interesting to him for very long. And hobbits like that, in general, and hobbit-lasses in particular-- seemed to be in short supply in The Shire. Hence... for that reason and for other reasons as well, a bachelor he remains.

Can't prove it, via Tolkien's letters or anything, but that's what it looks like to me.

--Helen

[ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

08-23-2002, 07:19 PM	#32
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Maril-- About "Speaking Christianese"-- point taken. It is one of my pet peeves, and there I went. Sorry. I will try. Please feel free to remind me whenever I fail to translate. Your particular frustration from my post: "There is the one of the differences between liturgical and evangelical vocabulary.." All that means is, I belong to a looser, less formal group that has less memorised stuff and less tradition (evangelical) while Gandalf belongs to a group rich in tradition and memorised stuff (liturgical). For some reason, liturgical spiritual retreats are really spiritual-- while evangelical "retreats" tend to be just an excuse to get away from it all (IMHO). Worship conferences on the other hand tend to get good and profound. So we had a vocabulary clash, and what Gandalf was intending as a mystical reference came across to me as just... well... boring. However, if I had remember that I was reading a post by a liturgical type of fellow I would have read it differently. Any better, or worse now? I tried. About Frodo and Goldberry-- I grant you that Goldberry, Arwen, and Galadriel are all unattainable. (And too tall.) However, that was really my point (bear with me). Bird mentioned, "Maybe he likes 'em tall." My comeback is, 'Maybe he likes 'em spiritual.' I tend to think that when he met genuinely spiritual females, his reaction was, "Now that's interesting-- she's interesting-- and... also quite out of my reach. Well, there it is." The first time, he's taken off guard, and embarasses himself. The next two times, he (carefully!) remains silent. But we do read that he was struck by their beauty. And I don't think Tolkien is implying only physical good looks; I think spiritual beauty is a large part of the mix. I think that he realised that if he had been looking for a wife, she'd have to be as interested in otherwordly things as he was, to remain interesting to him for very long. And hobbits like that, in general, and hobbit-lasses in particular-- seemed to be in short supply in The Shire. Hence... for that reason and for other reasons as well, a bachelor he remains. Can't prove it, via Tolkien's letters or anything, but that's what it looks like to me. --Helen [ August 23, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.