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***Mithadan*** · 02-22-2001, 08:08 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth

This is a difficult issue. The Silmarillion expressly states that men have free will "unlike" elves and the Valar. But the extent to which the actions of elves and the Valar are governed by fate is very murky. It seems that the music of the Ainur set forth at least a skeletal outline of the creation and workings of Arda and that the music, including Melkor's disruption, is incorporated into the unfolding of the history of Arda. Then there is the "vision" of Arda which was made by Eru after the Music. This vision ended early, either just before the coming of Elves or the awakening of Men.

Some portion of Arda's history is "recorded" by the music and the vision. It appears to be "set" or preordained. However, it is questionable: (1) how complete the "pre-recorded history was; and (2) whether such history is "set" even after the vision concluded. In my opinion, the Music and the Vision created broad brush strokes with details filed in by the free will of individuals and that elves are much more bound up by fate than men. Thus it was "set" that Melkor would interfere with the history of the world and would attempt to corrupt elves and men, but exactly how it would happen was not set. Also, when certain events occur, a "stream of fate" is created, i.e. Feanor rebels > Noldor go into exile > Wars of Beleriand > the Noldor's inevitable defeat > Valar intervene. This allows some events to be predictable, so Feanor can "foresee" that the Valar will intervene some time in the future, Ulmo can foresee the need for Gondolin and the coming of someone like Tuor, etc.

An additional theory: the free will of men is reduced when they interact with elves/Valar/Maiar so that their actions are more "fated" or predictable. Thus in the cases of Beren, Turin, Tuor, and even Aragorn and Frodo, their interactions with elves, Morgoth, Sauron result in them being bound up in "streams of fate".

I disagree with some of the posts above which suggest that Eru took active part in the events of Middle Earth. Other than when his aid is called upon by Manwe, it seems he does not (thus Eru criticizes the decision to summon the elves to Valinor and grieves at the actions of men). Middle Earth is not our world and our theology does not directly apply. JRRT says

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief" Lettrers #269 <hr></blockquote>

JRRT here means that ethics and morals apply (thus orcs are not irredeemable -- the subject of the quoted letter). There is good and evil and all should strive to act ethically and there are consequences when one fails to do so ( the Noldor's defeat in Beleriand, the assumption of power of the Stewards after the prideful actions of the last king, Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, etc.). But in Letters, JRRT expressly states that Iluvatar does not enter Arda and distinguishes Arda and its history from Christian "mythology" (his word not mine).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

02-22-2001, 08:08 AM	#23
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 632</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The role of Fate in Middle Earth This is a difficult issue. The Silmarillion expressly states that men have free will "unlike" elves and the Valar. But the extent to which the actions of elves and the Valar are governed by fate is very murky. It seems that the music of the Ainur set forth at least a skeletal outline of the creation and workings of Arda and that the music, including Melkor's disruption, is incorporated into the unfolding of the history of Arda. Then there is the "vision" of Arda which was made by Eru after the Music. This vision ended early, either just before the coming of Elves or the awakening of Men. Some portion of Arda's history is "recorded" by the music and the vision. It appears to be "set" or preordained. However, it is questionable: (1) how complete the "pre-recorded history was; and (2) whether such history is "set" even after the vision concluded. In my opinion, the Music and the Vision created broad brush strokes with details filed in by the free will of individuals and that elves are much more bound up by fate than men. Thus it was "set" that Melkor would interfere with the history of the world and would attempt to corrupt elves and men, but exactly how it would happen was not set. Also, when certain events occur, a "stream of fate" is created, i.e. Feanor rebels > Noldor go into exile > Wars of Beleriand > the Noldor's inevitable defeat > Valar intervene. This allows some events to be predictable, so Feanor can "foresee" that the Valar will intervene some time in the future, Ulmo can foresee the need for Gondolin and the coming of someone like Tuor, etc. An additional theory: the free will of men is reduced when they interact with elves/Valar/Maiar so that their actions are more "fated" or predictable. Thus in the cases of Beren, Turin, Tuor, and even Aragorn and Frodo, their interactions with elves, Morgoth, Sauron result in them being bound up in "streams of fate". I disagree with some of the posts above which suggest that Eru took active part in the events of Middle Earth. Other than when his aid is called upon by Manwe, it seems he does not (thus Eru criticizes the decision to summon the elves to Valinor and grieves at the actions of men). Middle Earth is not our world and our theology does not directly apply. JRRT says <blockquote>*Quote:*<hr> "I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief" Lettrers #269 <hr></blockquote> JRRT here means that ethics and morals apply (thus orcs are not irredeemable -- the subject of the quoted letter). There is good and evil and all should strive to act ethically and there are consequences when one fails to do so ( the Noldor's defeat in Beleriand, the assumption of power of the Stewards after the prideful actions of the last king, Boromir's attempt to seize the Ring, etc.). But in Letters, JRRT expressly states that Iluvatar does not enter Arda and distinguishes Arda and its history from Christian "mythology" (his word not mine). --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.