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mark12_30 · 09-09-2002, 11:04 AM

Greetings,

I'm reminded of something I read in Vinyar Tengwar about "Negation." Forgive me that I can't remember the syllable, and no doubt one of you can, but the quotes were of Tolkien saying that (elvish syllable) means yes; ten years later (elvish Syllable) means no; and then Frodo is quoted saying, "Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."

Did Tolkien take his elvish seriously? Of course. But even he realised that it had evolved over time, that he hadn't gotten everything in order, that there were contradictions over time, and he wanted to update everything..

I think his Letters show that he wanted above all that the heart of all he did, would remain intact. Hence his aversion to the movie-maker's script, in Letters; thy messed with the integrity of what he did; yet notice that his greatest fear was that the integrity of the characters would be trampled. I think we can extend that to the integrity of the visions themselves. Don't cheapen Frodo; Don't cheapen or belittle Gandalf or Aragorn or Elrond; don't cheapen Elvenhome or Lorien or Rivendell. Leave the integrity of each concept, of each person. All such twaddling (I think) annoyed him, but twaddling with the purity and luminosity and integrity of his creation annoyed him most of all.

He gladly entertained earnest questions about the characters and why they did what they did (see his long detailed responses concerning Frodo's final moments on Mt. Doom). He gladly entertained questions about Elvish words and phrases; but he gets most annoyed (Again, in the letters, don't have them with me, sorry) when somebody asks for a better explanation of why Gandalf didn't understand the Moria Gate inscription. Tolkien replies, in effect, Look, even though Gandalf admits to being distracted and temporarily stupid, why don't you take him at his word? If he says he missed it, he missed it; trust Gandalf and don't second-guess him.

I believe he would say the same thing to us. Trust the characters and trust the culture, and treat them with respect. If we started there, I think he would entertain whatever questions we had as long as his (admittedly finite) patience and strength held.

--Helen

[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

09-09-2002, 11:04 AM	#21
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Greetings, I'm reminded of something I read in Vinyar Tengwar about "Negation." Forgive me that I can't remember the syllable, and no doubt one of you can, but the quotes were of Tolkien saying that (elvish syllable) means yes; ten years later (elvish Syllable) means no; and then Frodo is quoted saying, "Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Did Tolkien take his elvish seriously? Of course. But even he realised that it had evolved over time, that he hadn't gotten everything in order, that there were contradictions over time, and he wanted to update everything.. I think his Letters show that he wanted above all that the heart of all he did, would remain intact. Hence his aversion to the movie-maker's script, in Letters; thy messed with the integrity of what he did; yet notice that his greatest fear was that the integrity of the characters would be trampled. I think we can extend that to the integrity of the visions themselves. Don't cheapen Frodo; Don't cheapen or belittle Gandalf or Aragorn or Elrond; don't cheapen Elvenhome or Lorien or Rivendell. Leave the integrity of each concept, of each person. All such twaddling (I think) annoyed him, but twaddling with the purity and luminosity and integrity of his creation annoyed him most of all. He gladly entertained earnest questions about the characters and why they did what they did (see his long detailed responses concerning Frodo's final moments on Mt. Doom). He gladly entertained questions about Elvish words and phrases; but he gets most annoyed (Again, in the letters, don't have them with me, sorry) when somebody asks for a better explanation of why Gandalf didn't understand the Moria Gate inscription. Tolkien replies, in effect, Look, even though Gandalf admits to being distracted and temporarily stupid, why don't you take him at his word? If he says he missed it, he missed it; trust Gandalf and don't second-guess him. I believe he would say the same thing to us. Trust the characters and trust the culture, and treat them with respect. If we started there, I think he would entertain whatever questions we had as long as his (admittedly finite) patience and strength held. --Helen [ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: mark12_30 ] __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.