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Elenhin · 01-20-2002, 08:51 AM

Orcs, their spirits:
I'm not sure what you mean with "antithesis of the Elves". If you mean that "ideal" Orc spirits were totally evil (as opposed to totally good "ideal" Elvish spirits) then I'm going to, politely, disagree with you.

If the Orcs were corrupted from Elves, they can't have been utterly irredeemable or totally evil. They might have seemed that way to Elves and Men, and the Free People certainly thought that an only good Orc is a dead Orc, but that doesn't mean that the Orcs were really born to be that way. LotR suggests that they had some semblance of morality remaining (Shagrat and Gorbag talking about the "Elf-Warrior" leaving his little friend behind: "That's how the Elves always do."). We also know that the Orcs would've forgotten any morality when a choice was to be made. The Orc societies were usually ruled by tyrants (often non-Orcs) and a peaceful Orc is of no use to a tyrant; and so any Orc who wished to be good wouldn't have had a chance to do so.

The destiny of a spirit of a dead Orc couldn't have been changed by Melkor, and I doubt that Eru would have punished an Orc - it wasn't the Orcs' fault that they were corrupted. If the Orcs were Elves, they would have gotten the same summons to Mandos as other Elves, but also the same right to disobey and stay as a houseless spirit in Arda. This, I believe, is what most of them decided to do - this would also give Sauron the Necromancer spirits to call upon. On the other hand, there are suggestions in Tolkien's texts that Mannish blood was mixed into Orcs even in the First Age. If this is the case, then the Orcs with Mannish blood would probably have gone to the same place as Men, and be healed.

Elves, free will and corruption:
Elves in their natural state were models of sinlessness? That could be said about Men as well - but neither of them were really in their natural (actally I think that 'original' would be a better word here) state. Nothing in Arda was free of Morgoth's corrupting influence. He didn't corrupt Elves as badly as Men (he didn't go to Cuivienen himself), but still every Elf we see in the stories was, more or less, corrupted.

I don't think that an Elf who excercises free will in an evil way is fully extraordinary (or unnatural), any more than a Man who does so. An evil Elda might be a rare case, but there were lots of Avari of whom we know very little of, and they were more susceptible to Morgoth's corrupting influence. Also, I don't think that predetermination is a restraint to any Elf, just that their actions and use of free will is more predictable than that of Men.

I don't think that the most important thing about the Mannish "special" free will in Tolkien's world is the ability to choose between good and evil. Men are called "the sole masters of themselves within Arda", yet everyone could freely choose between good and evil - the starter of evil and his mightiest followers were Ainur, and their actions in Arda were even more predetermined than those of Elves. I think that the "special" free will of Men was their ability to be free of the Music of the Ainur, and freedom from any kind of predetermination.

I wouldn't call the Doom of the Noldor a curse, but a prophecy. I don't think it caused any sorrows in itself - the Noldor and the followers of Feanor were mistrusted (and they mistrusted each other), not because of a curse on them but because of what they had done in Alqualonde. The only "curse" or "terrible doom" in work would be the Oath of Feanor, which caused all the Kinslayings.

01-20-2002, 08:51 AM	#30
Elenhin Wight Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Vantaa, Finland Posts: 205	Orcs, their spirits: I'm not sure what you mean with "antithesis of the Elves". If you mean that "ideal" Orc spirits were totally evil (as opposed to totally good "ideal" Elvish spirits) then I'm going to, politely, disagree with you. If the Orcs were corrupted from Elves, they can't have been utterly irredeemable or totally evil. They might have seemed that way to Elves and Men, and the Free People certainly thought that an only good Orc is a dead Orc, but that doesn't mean that the Orcs were really born to be that way. LotR suggests that they had some semblance of morality remaining (Shagrat and Gorbag talking about the "Elf-Warrior" leaving his little friend behind: "That's how the Elves always do."). We also know that the Orcs would've forgotten any morality when a choice was to be made. The Orc societies were usually ruled by tyrants (often non-Orcs) and a peaceful Orc is of no use to a tyrant; and so any Orc who wished to be good wouldn't have had a chance to do so. The destiny of a spirit of a dead Orc couldn't have been changed by Melkor, and I doubt that Eru would have punished an Orc - it wasn't the Orcs' fault that they were corrupted. If the Orcs were Elves, they would have gotten the same summons to Mandos as other Elves, but also the same right to disobey and stay as a houseless spirit in Arda. This, I believe, is what most of them decided to do - this would also give Sauron the Necromancer spirits to call upon. On the other hand, there are suggestions in Tolkien's texts that Mannish blood was mixed into Orcs even in the First Age. If this is the case, then the Orcs with Mannish blood would probably have gone to the same place as Men, and be healed. Elves, free will and corruption: Elves in their natural state were models of sinlessness? That could be said about Men as well - but neither of them were really in their natural (actally I think that 'original' would be a better word here) state. Nothing in Arda was free of Morgoth's corrupting influence. He didn't corrupt Elves as badly as Men (he didn't go to Cuivienen himself), but still every Elf we see in the stories was, more or less, corrupted. I don't think that an Elf who excercises free will in an evil way is fully extraordinary (or unnatural), any more than a Man who does so. An evil Elda might be a rare case, but there were lots of Avari of whom we know very little of, and they were more susceptible to Morgoth's corrupting influence. Also, I don't think that predetermination is a restraint to any Elf, just that their actions and use of free will is more predictable than that of Men. I don't think that the most important thing about the Mannish "special" free will in Tolkien's world is the ability to choose between good and evil. Men are called "the sole masters of themselves within Arda", yet everyone could freely choose between good and evil - the starter of evil and his mightiest followers were Ainur, and their actions in Arda were even more predetermined than those of Elves. I think that the "special" free will of Men was their ability to be free of the Music of the Ainur, and freedom from any kind of predetermination. I wouldn't call the Doom of the Noldor a curse, but a prophecy. I don't think it caused any sorrows in itself - the Noldor and the followers of Feanor were mistrusted (and they mistrusted each other), not because of a curse on them but because of what they had done in Alqualonde. The only "curse" or "terrible doom" in work would be the Oath of Feanor, which caused all the Kinslayings.