[lindil]

On the Authority of the Athrabeth of Finrod ah Andreth, on p. 303 of the american edition CJRT says that it

" ...is a major and finished work, and is reffered to elsewhere as if it had for my father some 'authority'.

He also wrote that either the Athrabeth be included as the last part of the Silmarillion. It is possible also that JRRT meant that the Athrabeth should be within the Silmarillion itself and that the commentary should be at the end. In either case it was for him a set of writings and ideas he never seriously modified or altered. As for it's date CJRT says between 1955-60 with 1959 as the most likely year.

It was closely associted with in both theme, time of writing and style with the Laws and Customs among the Eldar.

Bill ferny concluded with

Anyway, I think it can be argued that Tolkien’s cosmology is very much unchristian, and very much devoid of a principle of original sin, as is known by Christians. As Kalessin says, there is present an intuitive sense of creation, fall and redemption; I wouldn’t argue against it. But from a practical standpoint, Tolkien’s mythology is fundamentally different from the Christian mythos, and his work simply can’t be reduced to that model alone.

I would not say that the cosmology is 'very much un-Christian'. I would say that it is nearly as close as it could be while accounting for other races and a slightly different starting point of the Valar having a co-creative role in the formation and creation of Ea/Arda than we see [ I am not saying it was not so, but in the Old Testament/Torah we are not given any details as to the angels participation or lack there of] in the Biblical stories of Creation.

JRRT includes speculation [via Finrod] of the Incarnation of God and it's seeming necessity to repair the fall, a cornerstone of Christian cosmology if ever there was one.

That there are differeing details, yes, but as he grew older and his legendarium grew closer to 'Truth', it also grew closer to the cosmology which he understood to be Truth.

As he says in the Letters " ..and conciously so in the revision", refering to the implicit Christian underpinnings of the Legendarium.

I do agree that his work can not be reduced to the model of Christian accounts of the Fall alone, but I think to palce it against any other backdrop [in order to shed more light on it] and more imortantly to see it pointing in any other direction would be a mistake.

I personally see the Athrabeth as the Crown of the Legendarium, for in it he has the most noble of all of the Noldorin Princes stretching his mind out to encompass the depths of what a 'created' mind can discern of the creator, and seeing there - Christ.

You say that

In what year the Athrabeth was written is an important question. I tend to take seriously Christopher Tolkien’s words in the introduction to the Silm where he says that many of his father’s latter revisions and adaptations were colored by philosophical and theological speculation that was contrary to his original mythology. I’m not sure when it was written, but if it was a latter writing or fruit of these latter philosophical and theological speculations, then at least in my mind it would suspect. Perhaps Tolkien was trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

Suspect of what? Not being a considered and true part of his Legendarium?

The only square peg/round whole aspect I am aware of is that he, in order to give proper time for the fall to occur had to place the date of the arising of man further back than the 'flat world' cosmology [easily] allowed for.

That was a change he made based on wanting the legendarium to be more naturally realistic , than on theological grounds.

"many of his father’s latter revisions and adaptations were colored by philosophical and theological speculation that was contrary to his original mythology."

JRRT's original mythology was very far removed from the LotR/ published Silm that we have.

the Book of Lost Tales [c. 1917- early20's] was set in a pre-england/Ireland and while some characters and plots and motives were similar, virtually every aspect of the Legendarium underwent radical revision over the course of 50+ years.

There is no point that anyone other than JRRT could point to [and I doubt if he would!] and say " that was the pure and correct " legendarium. We can only go by his latest know thoughts and intentions.
the Athrabeth is certainly one of them and [in my opinion] the most important of them, and as Mithadan points out interwoven with the Osanwe-Kenta, another [ to my mind] essential work from the same period as well as the Laws and Customs among the Eldar.
JRRT's modifications and amplifications of the myth of the Fall within M-E and it's relationship to Morgoth were not isolated changes but were careful creations that were tightly interwoven thorughout the Legendarium. I would also add that IMO
the legendarium finally came to spiritual maturity during these years.

Also Bill F., I want to say that I greatly enjoyed your summary of Boetius and co. regarding natural law and grace.

[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]