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I think i read some where that when in Dol Guildor Saron visited Moria and "talked" with the Balrog, and Saron put orcs and troll under his control, i forge twhere though
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Nope.
Aule: They are called "Maiar". "Maiar" is plural, and "Maia" is singular.
Tarthang: My rather grouchy reply was not to your post, but to the two above it. Your post had not shown up when I hit the reply button.
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I just finished The Lost Road (HoME 5) and vividly recall the quote mentioning Hosts of Balrogs. I also recall one of the versions given has some of the Balrogs ran and hid, thus escaping the War of Wrath.
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We're actually talking about the Battle of the Powers. Nobody has denied that early accounts of this battle included 'hosts of Balrogs'.
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(Which by the way was led by Fionwe, son of Manwe, in these versions to put to rest the Maia, Vala having offspring issue to rest).
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The texts of HoMe V are obsolete, as is this version of the account of the War of Wrath (note: this is not the Battle of the Powers). Eonwe the Maia replaced Fionwe.
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I haven't read Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) yet
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At least some knowledge of
MR is required for this discussion. This is why you're not quite understanding the points that were made above. I highly recommend making
MR your next Tolkien purchase.
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Therefore, I could interpret these numbers to mean a refernce to the numbers of Balrogs who fled, going on what I've read from The Lost Road and what I'm seeing here.
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In the margin of a manuscript of the Annals of Aman (provided in
Morgoth's Ring), Tolkien wrote this: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 [Balrogs] ever existed.' I think the wording here rules out your interpretation.
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I've alway's interpreted any fallen Maia as being a Balrog. I don't know if JRRT ever addressed what exactly quantified a Balrog either, so even a lesser fallen Maia is a Balrog (if not as powerful as say Gothmog).
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It has to do with the spirit of the Maia. The Balrogs are 'spirits of fire'. Sauron was not a Balrog. Tolkien tells us that lesser Maiar took shape as mighty Orc chieftains.
I hope this helps!
[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]