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***Mithadan*** · 07-23-2000, 07:33 AM

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Re: tolkien 's "myths transformed"

If I recall correctly, JRRT also posited that the two trees became necessary because the clouds and murk of Morgoth covered Ea so that the sun and moon were obscured. This lends more credence to the Valar becoming "Valacentric" -- they had light so they didn't worry about Middle Earth. I think JRRT was really struggling with this issue and never thought it all the way through.

His concern was that the elves, having lived in Valinor, would certainly have known the truth about the sun and moon as opposed to the myth of their creation. If the tales come from the elves, then the "Narsilion" -- the creation of the sun and moon -- would not be part of their history (unless they were pulling the legs of man).

The Narsilion myth dates back to the Lost Tales. It appears that JRRT became dissatisfied with this erroneous bit of cosmology and began looking for ways to change it. He wanted to eliminate the flat earth myth and make it more in line with reality.

He had a good handle on the problems and came up with potential solutions. Problems included: (1) if the sun and moon were part of the creation of Ea, why would the trees be needed; (2) where to place Aman if the earth is round; (3) how to adjust the Akallabeth and the removal of Valinor from the circles of the earth; and (4) what about Earendil? Potential solutions: (1) make the Narsilion a primitive human explanation of the sun and moon (but the elves would still know, why wouldn't they tell the Edain?);(2) make the earth round and create a need for the trees through the murks of Morgoth (why wouldn't Manwe just use the winds to blow it away?). JRRT also seemed to recognize that this fundamental change would probably reduce the importance of Varda. This conception would also mean that the wars in Beleriand would be fought under Morgoth's murk and both the sun and moon and stars would be obscured.

Also, after Morgoth was chained at the end of the War of Wrath (I think I have the right name) the murk would retreat making the trees less important. Why would the slaying of the trees have such an impact if the sun and moon were around? The "Darkening of Valinor" would also have to change.

JRRT probably never satisfactorily resolved these issues. The extent of the rewrite of the Silm. would have been horrendous. I wouldn't want to take on this mess if JRRT couldn't resolve it. But it would be fun to play with these issues. Maybe the trees came first and the sun and moon later. Maybe Morgoth was powerful enough to enshroud all of Ea when he was in Utumno, but less strong later so that he needed Thangorodrim to make the murk.

</p>

07-23-2000, 07:33 AM	#4
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,391	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: tolkien 's "myths transformed" If I recall correctly, JRRT also posited that the two trees became necessary because the clouds and murk of Morgoth covered Ea so that the sun and moon were obscured. This lends more credence to the Valar becoming "Valacentric" -- they had light so they didn't worry about Middle Earth. I think JRRT was really struggling with this issue and never thought it all the way through. His concern was that the elves, having lived in Valinor, would certainly have known the truth about the sun and moon as opposed to the myth of their creation. If the tales come from the elves, then the "Narsilion" -- the creation of the sun and moon -- would not be part of their history (unless they were pulling the legs of man). The Narsilion myth dates back to the Lost Tales. It appears that JRRT became dissatisfied with this erroneous bit of cosmology and began looking for ways to change it. He wanted to eliminate the flat earth myth and make it more in line with reality. He had a good handle on the problems and came up with potential solutions. Problems included: (1) if the sun and moon were part of the creation of Ea, why would the trees be needed; (2) where to place Aman if the earth is round; (3) how to adjust the Akallabeth and the removal of Valinor from the circles of the earth; and (4) what about Earendil? Potential solutions: (1) make the Narsilion a primitive human explanation of the sun and moon (but the elves would still know, why wouldn't they tell the Edain?);(2) make the earth round and create a need for the trees through the murks of Morgoth (why wouldn't Manwe just use the winds to blow it away?). JRRT also seemed to recognize that this fundamental change would probably reduce the importance of Varda. This conception would also mean that the wars in Beleriand would be fought under Morgoth's murk and both the sun and moon and stars would be obscured. Also, after Morgoth was chained at the end of the War of Wrath (I think I have the right name) the murk would retreat making the trees less important. Why would the slaying of the trees have such an impact if the sun and moon were around? The "Darkening of Valinor" would also have to change. JRRT probably never satisfactorily resolved these issues. The extent of the rewrite of the Silm. would have been horrendous. I wouldn't want to take on this mess if JRRT couldn't resolve it. But it would be fun to play with these issues. Maybe the trees came first and the sun and moon later. Maybe Morgoth was powerful enough to enshroud all of Ea when he was in Utumno, but less strong later so that he needed Thangorodrim to make the murk. </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.