[lindil]

Origin of Orcs and Last Battle
this thread was archived as the core discussion ended up happening in the thread "Orcish Fear"

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Mithadan
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posted July 26, 2000 10:41 PM
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Pile o' Bones
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Orcs - Are they corrupted elves? LoTR IMPLIES they are. The Silm. suggests they are. Morgoth's Ring and Letters say no. If not elves, what were they? I've seen this one degenerate quickly on other boards so keep it civil.

The Final Battle - The end of Ea, the apocalypse itself. The Silmarillion predicts it but says nothing more. BoLT (Book of Lost Tales) and other HoME volumes go into more detail -- war on the plains of Valinor, the weary Valar, Turin slays Morgoth (wait a minute, Turin?). Later versions don't really get into it. Did JRRT change his mind? And what happens thereafter (the thereafter part is now the subject of a thread at White Council)?


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Posts: 1802 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

galpsi
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posted July 27, 2000 05:11 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs

Twentieth-century biologists (among them, my father) take pains to explain that there is no such thing as "corruption." There is only evolution.
(This is in lieu of making some sort of commitment by signing in. I will lend this my every curious eye but doubt that I can contribute significantly. My Summer gets busier with every week and come Autumn I go back to the classroom to teach and to attend. I reckon any spare time I can muster belongs better to Kittle's Encyclopedia project to which I've yet to proffer my promised contribution.)
ps, speaking of incivility, I've heard that trolls are mockeries of ents as orcs are of elves. Rumor says?


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Taimar
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posted July 27, 2000 08:22 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs

Melkor/Morgoth is a Vala and as such, would he have the power to alter captured Elves at a genetic level in order to breed Orcs? My knowledge of science is pretty basic, unfortunately, so others may be better informed, the erudite Galpsi for example, as to the practicalities of this. I am fortunate enough, however, to have someone with a professional interest in these matters on hand (my wife is an immunologist, specializing in DNA vaccines), and she sees no reason why a someone possessing the ability to alter their own physical form at will would not be able to tamper with the form of others. She suggests a combination of DNA recombination and a long-term selective breeding program.

I think the theory that Orcs are corrupted/evolved from the Elves would be my choice as an explanation of their origins. I also agree with Galpsi about trolls being made `in mockery` of the Ents. If I remember correctly Treebeard states this fairly clearly in LOTR, as well as the fact that Orcs were made in mockery of Elves.
Look into the Mirror of Desire.

Edited by Taimar at: 7/27/00 9:17:16 am

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Mithadan
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posted July 27, 2000 09:13 AM
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Re: Origin of Orcs

The problem is that both LoTR and the Silm. hold that Sauron and Morgoth couldn't "make" anything (compare the section on Aule's making of the dwarves -- no self awareness unless Eru provides it). The hard question is from what were orcs, and for that matter trolls or even dragons, made. Elves make sense given JRRT's latest chronologies. But JRRT apparently began to retreat from this position. The only real candidates are elves, men and dwarves (for orcs) and JRRT was leaning away from elves. Dwarves don't seem to fit, physically, and JRRT says that, other than greed, they are difficult to corrupt (I'm staying away from genetics here).

This leaves men, but they don't fit either. Orcs first came into Beleriand well before the slaying of the trees and the rebellion of the Noldor. They were also around to "greet" Feanor after he landed. But, JRRT (or CT) has men awakening at the first rising of the sun, which occurred after the Noldor arrived in ME (this also implicates Lindil's round earth/flat earth/Narsillion debate). Men don't work unless the chronology changes radically (I always thought that men got to Beleriand too fast). Also, there's the Gorbag/Shagrat discussion of "the bad old times", implying that orcs are long-lived like elves.


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Posts: 1802 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

lindil
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posted July 27, 2000 09:52 AM
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Animated Skeleton
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

I think that the older elves [men?] into orcs and trolls into ents conception should stay with a 'revised' silmarillion and Tolkien's deconstruction /partial reconstuct of this, among many points should go into a 'New Silmarillion'
[see my New/Revised post of if you want a bit more of this thinking].
I havn't seen the bit on turin yet ; although I could think of noone more fitting than Turin [except for maybe his father or sister ! ] for the demise of Morgoth. A pity if it couldn't be worked in the revised version somehow.

Edited by lindil at: 7/28/00 12:04:26 am

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Posts: 853 | From: a hidden fastness [N. CA] | Registered: Jul 2000

galpsi
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posted July 27, 2000 06:59 PM
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Ghost-Prince of Cardolan
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

This will be a thread board on which to tease. Even my most pointless wise-cracks serve to stimulate the erudition of this crowd.


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Mithadan
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posted July 28, 2000 08:30 AM
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Pile o' Bones
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

Who are you calling erude?


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Posts: 1802 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

galpsi
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posted July 28, 2000 09:03 AM
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The Unquiet Dead
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Re: Origin of Orcs and Gil-Galad !

Yeah! And what's a thread board?


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HerenIstarion
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posted September 27, 2000 08:34 PM
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Re: Final Battle

It is logical to have final battle abandoned - it is still to come. imagine we are now in 10th or some 15th age of the arda. It is still to come


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Garbonig
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posted October 18, 2000 05:30 AM
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Re: Final Battle

Final Battle is quite probably as idea or scene influenced by Edda's Raknarök. Raknarök is also a huge battle, where just about everything is destroyed. Difference is that in raknarök there is new rise of humans after that, or least hint that it might happen, but Tolkiens final battle is more like end of the world, battle before the "final judgement", some kind of armageddon. So final battle must be influenced by bibles profetias of dooms day. As someone allready said in earlier re., final battle is something still to come, Tolkien has left it open.


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Grey Fool
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posted November 05, 2000 01:51 PM
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Orc evolution

My guess is that Middle Earth supports just about the exact same rate of biodiversity as our native Earth, and as such the origin of such a malign species as orcs
is lost somewhere in the annals of chance. I'm certain that a theory exists somewhere that they were bred from dwarves in the North, during the Elder days. This would of course have required a total reversal of the main driving gene, whose function in the dwarves was to make them work hard constantly and produce wealth and fortitude. Orcs tended rather to destroy the majority of whatever they could lay their three-fingered hands on. Let's not forget that the majority of orcs throughout the ages remained Snaga, with relatively few reaching the Uruk stage until Saruman needed more for his campaign. Herein lies a basic comparison: Snaga and dwarves are both essentially slaves to a cause; Snaga serving evil as the sole purpose for their existence, and dwarves serving only themselves really, without much evolutional ambition other than to stay alive and strong. If a dwarf and an orc had a fight, however, it is highly likely that the dwarf would win.

But I wouldn't write off the Elf theory either


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Saulotus
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posted November 05, 2000 02:34 PM
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Wight
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Re: Orc evolution

Dwarves were not corrupted until the Rings.

Some dwarves of the east did indeed become servants of Sauron.

The awakening of Dwarves is pushed back to around V.Y. 1250 and I know of no theory from Tolkien in any writing that has them as ancestors of Orcs in any capacity.


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Mithadan
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posted November 06, 2000 01:49 PM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Orc evolution

Grey Fool: For a detailed discussion on the origins of orcs, see the thread "Orcish fear" in this forum. Saulotus is correct re: dwarves (and probably just about everything else).
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Saulotus
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posted November 06, 2000 08:02 PM
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Wight
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Re: Orc evolution

Hush now. I make mistakes.
I even admit to them too.
In some people that combo isn't a working relationship.


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Mithadan
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posted November 07, 2000 12:10 AM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Orc evolution

True. Inability to admit a mistake leads to defending or being trapped in an indefensible position. Runs about even with the concept that if you repeat something often enough or loud enough it becomes correct. Its one thing to possess a strong opinion and another to deny that its an opinion and pretend its a fact. That's why these boards interest me. The gaps in JRRT's works allow for speculation and extrapolation from what is known. Its an exercise in both creativity and advocacy with the added bonus of an enjoyable subject matter. Fun so long as everyone remembers that the goal is to discuss and persuade, not to "win". I have a nassssty temper but try not to let it peek through here. Sometimes I slip. Almost everyone does.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Posts: 1802 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

Saulotus
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posted November 07, 2000 12:52 PM
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Wight
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Re: Mithadan - (1) Origin of Orcs; (2)Final Battle

Well said. Well said.

I tend to shy away from excessive speculation.
I'll do some speculation mind you (normally if asked), but within bounds created by text.
If it still remains that there are gaps as a result; so be it.


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Grey Fool
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posted November 08, 2000 03:01 PM
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Pile o' Bones
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Orcish ancestry

I think dwarves are cited in HoME as being the blood relatives of orcs, but then again I could be wrong.
However, without mere speculation, there would have been no Tolkien.

NOTE:


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Saulotus
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posted November 08, 2000 03:27 PM
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Wight
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Re: Orcish ancestry


Quote:
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by Grey Fool
I think dwarves are cited in HoME as being the blood relatives of orcs, but then again I could be wrong.
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LOL!!!!!

You are.

Closest they ever got to that was when the Elves first met the Dwarves, they thought they were another form of Melkorian Beast.

This is also said in SILMARILLION.

Edited by: Saulotus at: 11/8/00 7:17:03 pm

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Mithadan
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posted November 08, 2000 10:52 PM
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Orcish ancestry

Might another factor in the elves initial impression of Dwarves not be that their first contact was with the Petty Dwarves who were less civil and more hostile than their "city-bred" kin?
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth."


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Posts: 1802 | From: Tol Eressea | Registered: Jul 2000

Saulotus
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posted November 09, 2000 05:40 AM
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Wight
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Re: Orcish ancestry

That is stated concerning petty-dwarves, and how the Elves hunted them thinking they were servants of Melkor. But you knew that already.


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Child of the 7th Age
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posted August 22, 2002 01:35 PM
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I am pulling up this thread as it relates to a discussion in the Books Forum.
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Guided by the Lonely Star,beyond the utmost harbour-bar, I'll find the havens fair and free,and beaches of the Starlit Sea. Ship, my ship! I seek the West and fields and fountains ever blest.... Bilbo's Last Song


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