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Tar Elenion · 03-24-2001, 11:24 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 74</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the debate turns canonical

I also posted this on the 'Aragorn's Ancestors' thread. But I think it fits here as well.

This is in responce to the statements indicating that the Shibboleth is not a valid source of information regarding this matter (or whatever matter may not be agreeable to the personal veiw of one party or another) since it says that 'the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arose only after the fall of Fingolfin, which is contradicted by other, earlier source material' (this is paraphrased but seems to be the intent).

The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: "The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin."

It is pointed out that The Silmarillion and its source material as primarily contained in HoME 5, The Lost Road; HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring; and HoME 11, War of the Jewels, all mention the Noldorin kingships in Beleriand well before the of Fingolfin in Year of the Sun 456, of the First Age.
Some relevant citations are:
"Fingolfin was King of Hithlum and Nivrost, and overlord of all the Gnomes. Felagund, lord of caverns, was King in Nargothrond, and his brothers Angrod and Egnor were the lords of Dorthanion and his vassals", Lost Road, Annals of Beleriand, change to Annal 52 contained in endnote 12.

"Though Fingolfin of Hithlum was overlord of all the Noldor, Inglor... became indeed the greatest prince in the land. For King Felagund he was in Nargothrond, whereas his brothers Angrod and Egnor were lords of Dorthonion and his vassals", Annal 62, Grey Annals, War of the Jewels.
(Note these seperate realms but under Fingolfin).

"This was the second great battle of these wars and was named the Dagor Aglareb... and for a long while after none of the servants of Morgoth would venture from his gates for they feared the kings of the Gnomes", LR, Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 8 the Siege of Angband.
(Note The Silmarillion uses 'lords of the Noldor', not 'kings of the Gnomes').

"But Maedhros restrained his brothers, and they departed from the council, and soon afterwards they left Mithrim and went eastward beyond Aros to the wide lands about the Hill of Himring. That region was named thereafter the March of Maedhros", The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor.

"There [in Nevrast] was for many years the realm of Turgon the was, son of Fingolfin"; and "Thus the sons of Feanor under Maedhros were the lords of East Beleriand", The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand and its Realms.

"...men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar."
"Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor, seeing hope of strength in the sons of men."
"...after some fifty years many thousands had entered the lands of the Kings."
The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men into the West.

This should be enough to establish that there were indeed several Noldorin kingships, all before the Fall of Fingolfin.

As has been noted it has been argued that this is contradicted by the 'Shibboleth of Feanor' which has the several kingships of the Noldor arising only after Fingolfin's death.

But that is not what it says.
The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: "The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin."

The difference is clear. The Shibboleth says nothing about the various kingships arising. It speaks of division.

Before the Fall of Fingolfin these Noldorin kingdoms were united.

"Therefore when the council came to the coosing of one to be overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin", The Grey Annals.

"[Maedhros, head of the Feanorians] remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin and would come among them at times for common council", The Silmarillion and similarily the Gray Annals.

"In this year Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, called a great council, and made a high feast, that was long after remembered as Mereth Aderthad, the Feast of Reuniting... Thither came many of the cheiftains and people of Fingolfin and Inglor [Finrod]; and the sons of Feanor Maidros and Maglor with warriors of the March; [and Cirdan and his folk and other Grey Elves and Nandor from Ossiriand and Mablung and Daeron]. At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will and oaths were sworn of league and friendship...", Annal 20, The Grey Annals and similarly in The Silmarillion.

During the Dagor Aglareb the forces of Fingolfin and Maedhros relieved Dorthonion which felt the main assault of Morgoth's host and was held held by sons of Finarfin. Together they defeated the servants of Morgoth and destroyed the host. After this the princes "... drew closer their leaguer and strengthened and ordered their watch, setting the Seige of Angband..." and because of this Morgoth attempted to "sow fear and disunion among the Eldar", quotes from The Silmarillion, 'Return of the Noldor. Here we have united Noldo realms defeating Morgoth's host, and Morgoth seeking to cause 'disunion'.

When the Edain came into Beleriand: "Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers to welcome them; and then many young and eager men o the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar", The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men. Here again we are shown that though there are various kings Fingolfin as King of all the Noldor welcomes the Edain and only then do they take service.

So we have here the various Noldo kingdoms united, maintaining a leaguer against Morgoth, aiding one another, sworn to friendship. Meanwhile Morgoth seeks to cause disunion.

Fingolfin would like to undertake an attack on Morgoth, but most of the Noldor trusted in their combined leaguer and did not wish to start an assault upon Thangorodrim. Then comes the Dagor Bragollach. Morgoth's hosts "...assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband...", "So great was the onslaught of Morgoth that Fingolfin and Fingon could not come to the aid of te sons of Finarfin..."; Dorthonion takes the brunt of the attack and Angrod and Aegnor are slain. Finrod coming to aid from the south is cut off and has to flee back to Nargothrond. Hithlum holds out "but Fingolfin was sundered from his kinsmen by a sea of foes". The sons of Feanor are also defeated "and well nigh all the east marches were taken". Celegorm and Curufin flee south and west and eventually take refuge in Nargothrond. While Maedhros holds out on Himring, Lothlann is overwhelmed and the lands east and south are ravaged, Caranthir flees south to Amon Ereb.
Fingolfin seeing the 'utter ruin of the Noldor' goes forth and challenges Morgoth, getting himself killed. Fingon then becomes King of the Noldor though the kingdoms are now broken and isolated. Minas Tirith on TolSirion is attacked and none come to its aid. Orodreth flees to Nargothrond. Morgoth sends out spies "among the peoples, accusing their kings and chieftains of greed and of treachery one to another... these lies were often believed; and indeed as the time darkened they had a measure of truth". When the Swarthy Men come into Beleriand Fingon is not said to send them messages, though the sons of Feanor take them into service. "When Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband he would not suffer any of his own people to issue forth to war". Morgoth "desired greatly to learn tidings of Felagund and Turgon. For they had vanished out of knowledge". Seven years after the Bragollach Morgoth assualts Hithlum and Fingon is sorely pressed and outnumbered. None of kin come to his aid and he is succored by Cirdan and the Falathrim. At the death of Finrod, Orodreth becomes king in Nargothrond and drives out Celegorm and Curufin.
Quotes from The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand.

Here the Noldor are divided into seperate kingships (with Fingon as the nominal High King).

So we have gone from united (if independent) kings and kingdoms before the Dagor Bragollach, to divided and isolated kingdoms of the Noldor after the death of Fingolfin.

Even Maedhros recognizes this. After Beren and Luthien take a Silmaril: "In those days Maedhros son of Feanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien were sung in many songs throuout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, if THEY could not AGAIN UNITE, and make NEW LEAGUE and common council", The Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle, The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, [my emphasis].

The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: "The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin."

This does not contradict the Silmarillion and its related sources which have various (united) kingships of the Noldor starting after the choosing of Fingolfin as High King, and which become seperate and divided after the Fall of Fingolfin.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

03-24-2001, 11:24 PM	#6
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 369	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 74</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: the debate turns canonical I also posted this on the 'Aragorn's Ancestors' thread. But I think it fits here as well. This is in responce to the statements indicating that the Shibboleth is not a valid source of information regarding this matter (or whatever matter may not be agreeable to the personal veiw of one party or another) since it says that 'the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arose only after the fall of Fingolfin, which is contradicted by other, earlier source material' (this is paraphrased but seems to be the intent). The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: "The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin." It is pointed out that The Silmarillion and its source material as primarily contained in HoME 5, The Lost Road; HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring; and HoME 11, War of the Jewels, all mention the Noldorin kingships in Beleriand well before the of Fingolfin in Year of the Sun 456, of the First Age. Some relevant citations are: "Fingolfin was King of Hithlum and Nivrost, and overlord of all the Gnomes. Felagund, lord of caverns, was King in Nargothrond, and his brothers Angrod and Egnor were the lords of Dorthanion and his vassals", Lost Road, Annals of Beleriand, change to Annal 52 contained in endnote 12. "Though Fingolfin of Hithlum was overlord of all the Noldor, Inglor... became indeed the greatest prince in the land. For King Felagund he was in Nargothrond, whereas his brothers Angrod and Egnor were lords of Dorthonion and his vassals", Annal 62, Grey Annals, War of the Jewels. (Note these seperate realms but under Fingolfin). "This was the second great battle of these wars and was named the Dagor Aglareb... and for a long while after none of the servants of Morgoth would venture from his gates for they feared the kings of the Gnomes", LR, Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 8 the Siege of Angband. (Note The Silmarillion uses 'lords of the Noldor', not 'kings of the Gnomes'). "But Maedhros restrained his brothers, and they departed from the council, and soon afterwards they left Mithrim and went eastward beyond Aros to the wide lands about the Hill of Himring. That region was named thereafter the March of Maedhros", The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor. "There [in Nevrast] was for many years the realm of Turgon the was, son of Fingolfin"; and "Thus the sons of Feanor under Maedhros were the lords of East Beleriand", The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand and its Realms. "...men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar." "Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor, seeing hope of strength in the sons of men." "...after some fifty years many thousands had entered the lands of the Kings." The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men into the West. This should be enough to establish that there were indeed several Noldorin kingships, all before the Fall of Fingolfin. As has been noted it has been argued that this is contradicted by the 'Shibboleth of Feanor' which has the several kingships of the Noldor arising only after Fingolfin's death. But that is not what it says. The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: "The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin." The difference is clear. The Shibboleth says nothing about the various kingships arising. It speaks of division. Before the Fall of Fingolfin these Noldorin kingdoms were united. "Therefore when the council came to the coosing of one to be overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin", The Grey Annals. "[Maedhros, head of the Feanorians] remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin and would come among them at times for common council", The Silmarillion and similarily the Gray Annals. "In this year Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, called a great council, and made a high feast, that was long after remembered as Mereth Aderthad, the Feast of Reuniting... Thither came many of the cheiftains and people of Fingolfin and Inglor [Finrod]; and the sons of Feanor Maidros and Maglor with warriors of the March; [and Cirdan and his folk and other Grey Elves and Nandor from Ossiriand and Mablung and Daeron]. At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will and oaths were sworn of league and friendship...", Annal 20, The Grey Annals and similarly in The Silmarillion. During the Dagor Aglareb the forces of Fingolfin and Maedhros relieved Dorthonion which felt the main assault of Morgoth's host and was held held by sons of Finarfin. Together they defeated the servants of Morgoth and destroyed the host. After this the princes "... drew closer their leaguer and strengthened and ordered their watch, setting the Seige of Angband..." and because of this Morgoth attempted to "sow fear and disunion among the Eldar", quotes from The Silmarillion, 'Return of the Noldor. Here we have united Noldo realms defeating Morgoth's host, and Morgoth seeking to cause 'disunion'. When the Edain came into Beleriand: "Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers to welcome them; and then many young and eager men o the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar", The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men. Here again we are shown that though there are various kings Fingolfin as King of all the Noldor welcomes the Edain and only then do they take service. So we have here the various Noldo kingdoms united, maintaining a leaguer against Morgoth, aiding one another, sworn to friendship. Meanwhile Morgoth seeks to cause disunion. Fingolfin would like to undertake an attack on Morgoth, but most of the Noldor trusted in their combined leaguer and did not wish to start an assault upon Thangorodrim. Then comes the Dagor Bragollach. Morgoth's hosts "...assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband...", "So great was the onslaught of Morgoth that Fingolfin and Fingon could not come to the aid of te sons of Finarfin..."; Dorthonion takes the brunt of the attack and Angrod and Aegnor are slain. Finrod coming to aid from the south is cut off and has to flee back to Nargothrond. Hithlum holds out "but Fingolfin was sundered from his kinsmen by a sea of foes". The sons of Feanor are also defeated "and well nigh all the east marches were taken". Celegorm and Curufin flee south and west and eventually take refuge in Nargothrond. While Maedhros holds out on Himring, Lothlann is overwhelmed and the lands east and south are ravaged, Caranthir flees south to Amon Ereb. Fingolfin seeing the 'utter ruin of the Noldor' goes forth and challenges Morgoth, getting himself killed. Fingon then becomes King of the Noldor though the kingdoms are now broken and isolated. Minas Tirith on TolSirion is attacked and none come to its aid. Orodreth flees to Nargothrond. Morgoth sends out spies "among the peoples, accusing their kings and chieftains of greed and of treachery one to another... these lies were often believed; and indeed as the time darkened they had a measure of truth". When the Swarthy Men come into Beleriand Fingon is not said to send them messages, though the sons of Feanor take them into service. "When Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband he would not suffer any of his own people to issue forth to war". Morgoth "desired greatly to learn tidings of Felagund and Turgon. For they had vanished out of knowledge". Seven years after the Bragollach Morgoth assualts Hithlum and Fingon is sorely pressed and outnumbered. None of kin come to his aid and he is succored by Cirdan and the Falathrim. At the death of Finrod, Orodreth becomes king in Nargothrond and drives out Celegorm and Curufin. Quotes from The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand. Here the Noldor are divided into seperate kingships (with Fingon as the nominal High King). So we have gone from united (if independent) kings and kingdoms before the Dagor Bragollach, to divided and isolated kingdoms of the Noldor after the death of Fingolfin. Even Maedhros recognizes this. After Beren and Luthien take a Silmaril: "In those days Maedhros son of Feanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien were sung in many songs throuout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, if THEY could not AGAIN UNITE, and make NEW LEAGUE and common council", The Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle, The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, [my emphasis]. The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: "The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin." This does not contradict the Silmarillion and its related sources which have various (united) kingships of the Noldor starting after the choosing of Fingolfin as High King, and which become seperate and divided after the Fall of Fingolfin. Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p> __________________ Tar-Elenion