[Joy]

Guys, this is my first time posting over here and I am a little (well, actually at lot)intimidated, as I do not have the knowledge that you all do.

As I have been reading the posts on this thread, a few things have come to my mind (scary!).

From Aiwendil

He also establishes that Iluvatar will at some point physically inhabit Arda, and that this physical habitation will be another part of the Healing. From his point of view, he probably thought of this as a foreshadowing of Christ; and considering that he allowed that much overt Christianity into the legendarium here, he most likely meant that the messiah would return at the end of the world (Arda Marred) and help create Arda Healed. I find it hard to reconcile that with the Turin prophecy.

I might be one of the few that sees this as a possiblity.

From Mhoram

In the Sketch of the Mythology or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the
1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when
Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought, Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

It states that the spirit of Turin shall be beside him.

Knowing that Tolkien was a devout Catholic, he knew the Scriptures that state John the Baptist would come in the spirit and power of Elias. Could Tolkien have written this as "one upon whom the spirit of Turin rests." If so, then this would allow for the incarnation of Iluvatar into ME to heal it.

Also from Mho

Another reference is found in the Annals of Aman (X.71, 76),
where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.'

To the Elves, this constellation (Orion) had huge symbolic importance, representing an eternal guardian of the World. In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return - Taken from Encyclopedia of Arda. Also, please take a look at this web site on Orion in Christian thought.

On another note, could Menelvagor represent Oromë, since he is the Huntsman of the Valar? Tolkien states that he delights in hounds. If you look at Orion, you can see Canis Minor and Canis Major at his feet, these are the "Little Dog" and "The Greater Dog."

In one version of Tolkien's work, Ursa Major (Sirius) is Helluin, who followed Telimektar, Tulkas's son. In this version, it is stated that Telimektar became Menelmakar or Menelvagor. Could Tolkien have been playing with the idea of Tulkas being represented as Orion (Mengelvagor), given this phrase in the 2nd prophecy of Mandos,

In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the Black Sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Also, the Wain (Valacirca), Ursa Major (Big Dipper), is called the Sickle of the Valar. If you note it's postion in the sky, it looks to be receiving Draco, the Dragon, into it's cup.


Sorry for such a long reply, I was searching some of my info out as I was posting.