The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - *A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin*

jallanite · 08-12-2001, 01:27 PM

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Re: Miscellaneous comments

Elemmakil/Ecthelion

The more I look the less I care. Actually, since the name of the chief of the guard in FG isn't given we don't know that he wasn't Ecthelion. Go by who is most likely to speak the words in the tales as revised.

Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil

Tolkien was still using k in some early Appendix material, most of which was written after Tuor. The decision to use c throughout for the k sound in Elvish, except before the w sound, was a very late decision by Tolkien, so we should not expect to find it implemented in Tuor or in other works CT dates around 1951. But macil 'sword' seems to have been a common element in names. In published LR Narmacil and Calmacil are names in the line of the Kings of Gondor. In Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) Tolkien gives Mormacil 'Blacksword', the Quenya version of Túrin's byname. All three forms have c rather than k.

Ork names

Yes, who can say what they are? I think you are right, leave them alone unless an obvious correction appears. All names need not be meaningful as Tolkien stresses in his later writings. And he was always ready to change the etymology to fit the form. There are at least three different etymologies for Ecthelion. As the Black Speech did not exist at the time of the Fall of Gondolin, the Orks may be using Sindarin names, perhaps dialectical, or they may be names in some Orkish tongue, but partly adapted in the tale to Sindarin style.

Dramborleg

The index to BoLT 2 says Dramborleg means 'Thudder-sharp'. from root TARA, TARAMA 'batter, thud, beat' with the second element being leg, lêg 'keen, piercing'.

For the identical Sindinarin form the etymology is slightly different but meaning is close enough as to make it certain JRRT was purposely justifying the name.

See drambor 'clenched fist, hence blow with fist (see KWAR)' under DARÁM- in "Etymologies". The word dramb, dram(m) means 'a heavy stroke, a blow (e.g. of axe)'.

For the second element, see the stem LAIK- 'keen, sharp, acute'. The Noldorin form given is lhaeg which we would normalize in Sindarin as laeg. I would expect this to reduce to leg in the last syllable in a compound, and indeed it does in an example under the stem LAS²- where the Q name Lastalaika 'sharp-ears' has the Noldorin cognate Lhathleg.

Dramborleg stands with no problems.

Poplars and Oaks

I think it unlikely that two kinds of deciduous trees, mallorn and birch, and no other would be found in Gondolin. Certain particular mounds (or whatever the word is) had on them or about them mallorn, birch, and evergreen trees. That says nothing about trees in the rest of the city. Leave the reference.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 8/12/01 3:42:31 pm

08-12-2001, 01:27 PM	#76
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 59</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Miscellaneous comments Elemmakil/Ecthelion The more I look the less I care. Actually, since the name of the chief of the guard in FG isn't given we don't know that he wasn't Ecthelion. Go by who is most likely to speak the words in the tales as revised. Elemmacil vs. Elemmakil Tolkien was still using k in some early Appendix material, most of which was written after Tuor. The decision to use c throughout for the k sound in Elvish, except before the w sound, was a very late decision by Tolkien, so we should not expect to find it implemented in Tuor or in other works CT dates around 1951. But macil 'sword' seems to have been a common element in names. In published LR Narmacil and Calmacil are names in the line of the Kings of Gondor. In Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) Tolkien gives Mormacil 'Blacksword', the Quenya version of Túrin's byname. All three forms have c rather than k. Ork names Yes, who can say what they are? I think you are right, leave them alone unless an obvious correction appears. All names need not be meaningful as Tolkien stresses in his later writings. And he was always ready to change the etymology to fit the form. There are at least three different etymologies for Ecthelion. As the Black Speech did not exist at the time of the Fall of Gondolin, the Orks may be using Sindarin names, perhaps dialectical, or they may be names in some Orkish tongue, but partly adapted in the tale to Sindarin style. Dramborleg The index to BoLT 2 says Dramborleg means 'Thudder-sharp'. from root TARA, TARAMA 'batter, thud, beat' with the second element being leg, lêg 'keen, piercing'. For the identical Sindinarin form the etymology is slightly different but meaning is close enough as to make it certain JRRT was purposely justifying the name. See drambor 'clenched fist, hence blow with fist (see KWAR)' under DARÁM- in "Etymologies". The word dramb, dram(m) means 'a heavy stroke, a blow (e.g. of axe)'. For the second element, see the stem LAIK- 'keen, sharp, acute'. The Noldorin form given is lhaeg which we would normalize in Sindarin as laeg. I would expect this to reduce to leg in the last syllable in a compound, and indeed it does in an example under the stem LAS²- where the Q name Lastalaika 'sharp-ears' has the Noldorin cognate Lhathleg. Dramborleg stands with no problems. Poplars and Oaks I think it unlikely that two kinds of deciduous trees, mallorn and birch, and no other would be found in Gondolin. Certain particular mounds (or whatever the word is) had on them or about them mallorn, birch, and evergreen trees. That says nothing about trees in the rest of the city. Leave the reference. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 8/12/01 3:42:31 pm