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Voronwe · 05-30-2001, 10:01 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 235</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The 'Gift' of men and the Athrabeth

My theory was mostly speculation, but I was suggesting that originally Men did not die after a certain length of time, but remained in Arda as long as they wanted to, before leaving it forever to go to Eru. So all men would have died in the end, but out of choice. Eru would have taken away man's choice with respect to death because Melkor had made them fear it, thus saving men from Melkor's complete domination.

Although I know of no direct textual evidence to support this, for me at least it seemed to fit. In his commentry on the Athrabeth, Tolkien said the following, refering to the Hobbit's sailing to Eressea:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The passing 'oversea', therefore, of Mortals after the Catastrophe - which is recorded in the Lord of the Rings - is not quite the same thing [as the passing oversea of the Elves]. It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid.<hr></blockquote>

This makes Arwen's words 'Estel, Estel!' at Aragorn's death seem, perhaps, all the more meaningful.

The Numenoreans, in the days of their bliss, seem to have regained some of man's original nature - they lived long lives and died in the end of free will - probably because of their reconciliation with Eru. Sadly, this just makes the Downfall of Numenor more tragic - like a second Fall of mankind.

Durelen - what are these old questions that might be answered by this interpretation?

-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000143>Voronwe</A> at: 5/30/01 12:40:45 pm

05-30-2001, 10:01 AM	#4
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 235</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: The 'Gift' of men and the Athrabeth My theory was mostly speculation, but I was suggesting that originally Men did not die after a certain length of time, but remained in Arda as long as they wanted to, before leaving it forever to go to Eru. So all men would have died in the end, but out of choice. Eru would have taken away man's choice with respect to death because Melkor had made them fear it, thus saving men from Melkor's complete domination. Although I know of no direct textual evidence to support this, for me at least it seemed to fit. In his commentry on the Athrabeth, Tolkien said the following, refering to the Hobbit's sailing to Eressea: <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> The passing 'oversea', therefore, of Mortals after the Catastrophe - which is recorded in the Lord of the Rings - is not quite the same thing [as the passing oversea of the Elves]. It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid.<hr></blockquote> This makes Arwen's words 'Estel, Estel!' at Aragorn's death seem, perhaps, all the more meaningful. The Numenoreans, in the days of their bliss, seem to have regained some of man's original nature - they lived long lives and died in the end of free will - probably because of their reconciliation with Eru. Sadly, this just makes the Downfall of Numenor more tragic - like a second Fall of mankind. Durelen - what are these old questions that might be answered by this interpretation? -Voronwë <font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death He sped from Westerland.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000143>Voronwe</A> at: 5/30/01 12:40:45 pm* __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes