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Thingol · 02-06-2002, 04:33 PM

Well first off Moby **** is not an evil character, quite the contrary Moby **** is a metaphor for the power of God and the ultimate futility of attempting to attack God or usurp ones place in the universe. Sauron on the other hand seeks to dominate and destroy the entire world, all for the sake of gaining power. Gaining power is certainly not the goal of God, (represented by Moby **** ) he is already supreme. I agree with Carannillion that without reading The Silm. the reader can not fully appreciate the scope of the relationship between good and evil. Sauron has indeed made a great sacrifice for the sake of gaining power. He gives up the bliss of Valinor, he becomes trapped in a terrible form, and loses his humanity (he could no longer interact with other beings, save through fear and intimidation. He was once indeed beautiful to behold and apparently a very eloquent and convincing fellow). We do get a glimpse of this in The Lord of the Rings; Sauron sacrifices a great deal of his native power to create the One Ring. The One Ring itself represents the type of power (evil power) that Sauron possessed, not only enhanced physical power, but temptation and corruption. After Sauron is corrupted by Melkor he further diminishes his own native strength to create a weapon (The One Ring) that enhances his power to dominate others. Zeus' lust transforms him into a jealous, cruel and impulsive villain, while Sauron's desire for power transforms him from a beautiful, god like being to a hideous and terrifying monster. Mr. Underhill raises the point that I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread, just because The Lord of the Rings does not address sexuality or faith in the same in depth and realistic manner that other more modern novels do does not take anything away from the book. In one of my other posts I asked what people’s favorite theme in The Lord of the Rings was, in my opinion it is the theme of change. Tolkien’s elucidation of every theme that is mentioned in that post is brilliant. One can not ask what is the greatest book of the century because no two books deal with exactly the same theme in the same manner. A book can not really be judged on the themes it presents, it must be judged on how it presents them, and The Lord of the Rings does a hell of a job presenting its themes. What right does anyone have to say that the theme of sexuality is more important than the theme of change, that is merely a matter of preference. However a critic may criticize the manner in which an author presents his themes. For Mr. Jenkyns to criticize The Lord of the Rings for not presenting two themes in the modern sense(sexuality and faith, which are not even designed to be dominate themes) is ludicrous. I was also a little bit offend by Mr. Jenkyns' hints that Tolkien fans do not enjoy any other literature. This is not true of me and from the extremely intelligent discussion of not only The Lord of the Rings but of other books as well I can see that it is not true for the vast majority on this board. Maybe this is true for some fans, but not the majority. I’m sure there are Shakespeare fans that prefer nothing but Shakespeare, that does not mean that they are the majority.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

02-06-2002, 04:33 PM	#43
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Well first off Moby ** is not an evil character, quite the contrary Moby is a metaphor for the power of God and the ultimate futility of attempting to attack God or usurp ones place in the universe. Sauron on the other hand seeks to dominate and destroy the entire world, all for the sake of gaining power. Gaining power is certainly not the goal of God, (represented by Moby ** ) he is already supreme. I agree with Carannillion that without reading The Silm. the reader can not fully appreciate the scope of the relationship between good and evil. Sauron has indeed made a great sacrifice for the sake of gaining power. He gives up the bliss of Valinor, he becomes trapped in a terrible form, and loses his humanity (he could no longer interact with other beings, save through fear and intimidation. He was once indeed beautiful to behold and apparently a very eloquent and convincing fellow). We do get a glimpse of this in The Lord of the Rings; Sauron sacrifices a great deal of his native power to create the One Ring. The One Ring itself represents the type of power (evil power) that Sauron possessed, not only enhanced physical power, but temptation and corruption. After Sauron is corrupted by Melkor he further diminishes his own native strength to create a weapon (The One Ring) that enhances his power to dominate others. Zeus' lust transforms him into a jealous, cruel and impulsive villain, while Sauron's desire for power transforms him from a beautiful, god like being to a hideous and terrifying monster. Mr. Underhill raises the point that I was trying to make at the beginning of the thread, just because The Lord of the Rings does not address sexuality or faith in the same in depth and realistic manner that other more modern novels do does not take anything away from the book. In one of my other posts I asked what people’s favorite theme in The Lord of the Rings was, in my opinion it is the theme of change. Tolkien’s elucidation of every theme that is mentioned in that post is brilliant. One can not ask what is the greatest book of the century because no two books deal with exactly the same theme in the same manner. A book can not really be judged on the themes it presents, it must be judged on how it presents them, and The Lord of the Rings does a hell of a job presenting its themes. What right does anyone have to say that the theme of sexuality is more important than the theme of change, that is merely a matter of preference. However a critic may criticize the manner in which an author presents his themes. For Mr. Jenkyns to criticize The Lord of the Rings for not presenting two themes in the modern sense(sexuality and faith, which are not even designed to be dominate themes) is ludicrous. I was also a little bit offend by Mr. Jenkyns' hints that Tolkien fans do not enjoy any other literature. This is not true of me and from the extremely intelligent discussion of not only The Lord of the Rings but of other books as well I can see that it is not true for the vast majority on this board. Maybe this is true for some fans, but not the majority. I’m sure there are Shakespeare fans that prefer nothing but Shakespeare, that does not mean that they are the majority. [ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.