The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - Concerning Isildur and Sauruman

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Concerning Isildur and Sauruman

According to the appendix in LOTR Sauruman found the body of Isildur somewhere along the river and took the elenilmer from him along with the wallet and chain that Isildur wore. However Sauruman does not show up on Middle Earth until much much later. I know it isn't till at least hundreds of years later. Question is this. If Sauruman supposedly found the body of Isildur that many years later, how much of it was left, also this meant that presumeably Sauruman found it when he became Warden of Isengard otherwise he would have been evil much before it is guessed when Gandalf meets him after a council meeting and Sauruman first shows some hostility towards Gandalf. I just kind of want some other thoughts on this.

Well.. in the UT it says that no one has seen the body including Saruman, but that the Elendilmir was not taken away by the water. Otherwise you are right the Istari landed around 1000 T.E.

It does however mention Sauruman as finding it and says something along the lines of "who knows what he did with the body" or something like that I don't have it in from of me but it alludes to the fact that Sauruman did something with it.

Quote:

Long afterwards, as the Third Age of the Elvish World waned and the War of the Ring approached, it was revealed to the Council of Elrond that the Ring had been found, sunk near the edge of the Gladden Fields and close to the western bank; though no trace of Isildur's body was ever discovered. They ere also then aware that Saruman had been secretly searching in the same region; but though he had not found the Ring (which had long before been carried off), they did not yet know what else he might have discovered.
But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm, and one of his first tasks was the restoration of Orthanc, where he proposed to set up again the palantir recovered from Saruman. Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. [...] At last behind a hidden door that they could not have found or opened had not Elessar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the Ring; but it was almost bare. In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the Elendilmir itself, the white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril 31 that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil, and had been taken by him as the token of royalty in the North Kingdom

When it says 'no trace of Isildur's body was ever discovered,' it means that it was never discovered as a result of any searching done by the forces of good (primarily the Council and those in allegiance with Imladris).

The passage continues (and fully explains what happened, I think)...

Quote:

When men considered this secret hoard more closely, they were dismayed. For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high. Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them – burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst.

Yes that were the passages, but I dont have the UT in English so didnt know what to post. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Thank you Legolas, yes I knew of the passage in the UT but I guess my point is this, those bones must have been rotting for a long time and it seems hard to believe that after a thousand years the Elindimer and the chain could just simply be found after at least a thousand years among the reeds and vegatation. It seems more likely to me that after that many years it would be buried deep in the earth by then and I don't think Sauruman had any metal detectors. A more likely although not supported in any other way than probability is that someone else found the treasures and were either taken or given to Sauruman.

Quote:

It seems more likely to me that after that many years it would be buried deep in the earth by then and I don't think Sauruman had any metal detectors. A more likely although not supported in any other way than probability is that someone else found the treasures and were either taken or given to Sauruman.

Well Saruman was the first to come up with 'Blasting Powder' as I recall. So perhaps he was creating other such technologies such as an ability to sense metal. Or maybe there was a shifting of the river, and what had been covered in mud was exposed.

It does however seem plausible that the elements would have had their way with all but non-corrosive/decaying metal.

Of course the ring being in the reeds 2.5 thousand[?] years later is pretty odd too.

Is there a specific answer to what Saruman's worst deed was?

The possibility that Saruman had blended the races of orcs and men was described as 'a black evil', I think by one of Aragorn's party.

[ November 21, 2003: Message edited by: Lost One ]

Of course the fact that Saruman was a traitor was in itself a dark deed

Falling with war and vile destruction upon his friends, is worse than throwing out a few old bones.