The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)

- The Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9)

- - Ogres? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=86)

Were ogres not a part of ME, or were they mentioned in a book tat I haven't seen?

To my knowledge, the closest thing to an ogre that could be found in Middle Earth was either some type of Giant (i.e. stone giants) or some breed of Troll.

Shrek's got his own little world.

EA

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:48 PM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Elvish Archer ]

There is only one mention of 'ogres,' from The Hobbit:

Quote:

Poor Bilbo sat in the dark thinking of all the horrible names of all the giants and ogres he had ever heard told of in tales, but not one of them had done all these things.

Ogres didn't realy exist in Middle-earth, nor did Giants. You must remember that The Hobbit was written by Bilbo (so it contains some of his 'enhancements' or exaggerations) and as a hobbit, he lived in a very isolated environement - these tales he spoke of were nothing more than tall tales made up to entertain the children (since there were no great battles or heros in the Shire until he came long, and Frodo and his friends).

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:08 PM January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Granted Ogres didn't exist in Middle Earth but I disagree about the existance of giants.

In the Hobbit, just before the Company is taken by Goblins, as they are walking through the mountains, it mentions Stone Giants out throwing boulders at each other. Later in the House of Elrond, Gandalf make mention that he'd "... have to find a more or less decent giant to block it up or there'll be no traveling through the mountains at all..." (Or something like that. I'm doing this from memory at 10:00 at night. Bad combination if you're trying for accurate quotes.)

I believe these are the only times that Giants are mentioned. I don't recall any in the LotR.

EA

'Giants' (like 'ogres' no doubt) are a trace of the fairy-tale The Hobbit showing that it originally wasn't intended to be a part of the legendarium that came to be with The Lord of the Rings by fusing it with the world of The Silmarillion (the completion which Tolkien was unsure of).

For further discussion of Giants, I request that any comments be made on this recen thread. I advise you to go there and read Squatter's posts. You can see the past threads about Giants on the index of Haudh-en-Ndengin - there are some good posts in each. Giants are basically discarded as a discrepancy as I've mentioned above - there's a thread about the discrepancies of The Hobbit in general here.

Squatter sums it up well -

Quote:

I think it is important to remember that when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he had no idea that he would later write The Lord of the Rings. It was never intended to be the sort of high adventure that the later work was, and it naturally contained many elements of Faërie that were inappropriate or difficult to place in the later conception. He could rewrite it to a certain extent to fit with the later book (such as in the case of Bilbo's meeting with Gollum), but he tended to do this only when he had to do so to avoid direct contradiction. As a result, there are a number of places where The Hobbit and its sequel don't quite see eye to eye: an auctorial failing that doesn't significantly affect the story except for the most incurable pedant.

I've never really thought of it like that. I a;ways thought there would be giants in ME but putting it like that has me convinced.

Another discrepancy is the differences between Orcs and Goblins. In the Hobbit it says something about Goblins being being a different race to Orcs, but they're not. They're interchangeable words pretty much.

NB. Goblins do tend to be smaller than Uruks

Giants throwing stones at each other, that quote taken from the Hobbit just signifies a storm or earthquake or simply rubble falling down the mountain. It is just a metaphore used to emphasize the semblance of chaos. Giants could also be seen throwing bolts of lightening or causing avalanches. MIddle Earth did not have the national weather forecasting association, natural occurances could easily have been associated to Giants or other super natural creatures.

Giants had no place on Middle Earth.

Aren't Ogres a type of Troll?

Ogres are certainly fantasy even in Middle-Earth but I wouldn't be certain about Giants.See my comment in the "Questions about Stone-Giants" thread.

Quote:

It is just a metaphore used to emphasize the semblance of chaos.

In an 'ordinary' book, then yeah, this would have to be a metaphor. But it is hard in Tolkein to distinguish between imagery and actual things. I cite the long going debate over whether Balrogs have wings or not as a precedent of sorts.

Its good to bare in mind that Ogre can just be used to mean a big, ugly man. Don't know what that adds to the debate.

If Bilbo refers to Ogres, it is quite possible that they existed. I am sure that there are a great many denizens of Middle-earth that we never hear anything about. It is, after all, a big place, and we are really only ever acquainted with its north-western part. In a world where Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Trolls and Balrogs (fire spirits) existed, I really see no reason to discount Bilbo's reference to Ogres as mere fantasy. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]